The Middle East

[Adam 375]

5 hours ago, KarenK said:

Unfortunately innocent Palestinians get hurt too which is why they were trying to get them out of there. 

except after Israel told them to move south(to be safe), Israel started bombing that very area. Hamas needs to be eradicated, and at some point Joe-palestine needs to start diming them out. as much as hamas has stated israel needs to be wiped off the planet, there are large numbers of Israelis that say the same of Palestinians(not just hamas). what hamas did was beyond deplorable yet it does not justify the wanton destruction and disregard for innocent life that we currently see from Israel....at this point they are no better than those terrorists. one should also remember just as reports have established that hospital was a result of an errant hamas rocket; reports also confirmed Egypt had warned Israel of an impending attack ahead of October 7th yet were completely off guard? its time Israel is told same as russia with Ukraine, no more free passes

[Adam 375]

5 hours ago, Elizabeth Whitehouse said:

5 hours ago, KarenK said:

Hamas should be flattened, just like they flattened 260 innocent kids at a concert.  Unfortunately innocent Palestinians get hurt too which is why they were trying to get them out of there.  Terrorist do not just give up.  Ever.  

I do not see Hamas as terrorists. I see them as freedom fighters.

the sheer stupidity of that statement is simply mind-boggling 

[Adam 375]

4 hours ago, MsKreed said:

.It’s highly unlikely that Israel had any  plans to “flatten” Hamas (or Gaza) as of October 6th

my concern there is that israeli "settlers" have been slowly chipping away at palestinian lands and homes over the years with security/IDF turning a blind eye. flattening gaza and killing thousands of palestinians will open up quite a bit of land to re-settle

[Hal 341]

51 minutes ago, Elizabeth Whitehouse said:

Being in the military is nothing to be proud of. Worse if you can't read. I have said that I am not an anti-Semite (because Palestinians are as Semitic as Jews); I am anti-Israeli.

Well , Thank you so much ! I’m still proud , you aren’t going to change that . No that has been tried before by those not much smarter than yourself … or were they 🤔? Meh , no matter ! 
Your words ring very Un American now . I can only imagine every Soldier, Sailor , Airman and Marine lying in Arlington and other Military Cemeteries around the World that Fought , but not like your Hamas friends, and Died , without human shields, if they could but see that their Sacrifice to Preserve  Your Right to your Very Low Opinion of them I can only imagine they would ask “ What the Frig was it All for ? “ . Now if you want to knock me for for being in the Military then insult my intelligence by intimating I cannot read thats fine with me . Go ahead with your silly game , I can take it I have dealt with your ilk for longer than most on this site have been alive quite possibly including yourself . So lets dance eh ?! 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Hal

[Ann 264]

16 hours ago, Elizabeth Whitehouse said:

Have you been to Israel?  I have, and it is the one country out of 90 I have been to that I will not go back to. I am not an anti-Semite; I am anti-Israeli. Remember that Arabs are also Semites. The Jews who settled in land stolen from Palestine are quite  likely not even Semites.  They tend to be eastern Europeans with absolutely no claim to the so-called Holy Land.

Weren’t Jews there when Rome ruled the area?  When Christ walked the earth and thousands of years before that.  Jews, like other peoples, migrated or were forcibly removed, from their home land.  That doesn’t change the fact that their ancestors walked those same lands and they can not return if they wish.  Eliminate the radicals and I believe the average Jewish and Arab/Muslim/Palestinian, whatever, could live in peace.

[MsKreed 1,186]

 

19 hours ago, Adam said:

my concern there is that israeli "settlers" have been slowly chipping away at palestinian lands and homes over the years with security/IDF turning a blind eye. flattening gaza and killing thousands of palestinians will open up quite a bit of land to re-settle

Yes, there could be some land opened up "if" the Gaza strip was completely vacated of Palestinians.

However, I don’t think that’s a likely possibility....or a goal for Israel. First, because, Gaza’s 140.9 sq mi really doesn’t represent much “real estate”. In relation to Israel’s landscape, adding less than 2% doesn’t seem like a priority at this point.

Their priority is to remove the terrorist Hamas zealots who constitute a continual threat to safety (whose Charter is built on the aspiration to remove all the Jews from “the river to the sea).  Even now, after the October 7th massacre, Israel hasn’t expressed plans to drive non-combatant Palestinians out of Gaza -- just to eliminate Hamas.

Quote

 

“I think we know two things. We can’t go back to the status quo; they can’t go back to the status quo with Hamas being in a position in terms of its governance of Gaza to repeat what it did,” Blinken said during an interview on NBC’s “Meet the Press.”

“At the same time, what I’ve heard from the Israelis is absolutely no intent, no desire, to be running Gaza themselves.”

Source

Edited October 25, 2023 by MsKreed

[Chris 2,180]

3 hours ago, MsKreed said:

Even now, after the October 7th massacre, Israel hasn’t expressed plans to drive non-combatant Palestinians out of Gaza -- just to eliminate Hamas

Seems reasonable to me.

[Elizabeth Whitehouse 18]

Yes. There were Jews in that area. We are told that Jesus was a Jew. And Arabs, now known as Palestinians were there too.

I find it absolutely shocking that the United Nations could just take land from the Palestinians and give it to Jews.  It would be equally shocking if they had taken land from Italy and given it to Somalis, just as an extreme example.

Arabs and Jews do co-exist peacefully in Israel. But Palestinians need/deserve their own country.

[Elizabeth Whitehouse 18]

25 minutes ago, Chris said:

Seems reasonable to me.

If that was their plan. But it seems that they want to flatten Gaza.

 

[Adam 375]

4 hours ago, MsKreed said:

Even now, after the October 7th massacre, Israel hasn’t expressed plans to drive non-combatant Palestinians out of Gaza

"Settlers have been slowly taking smaller percentages than that for years but:

 To openly state such a goal would be almost as moronic as calling hamas "freedom fighters" wouldnt it?

Im in no way stating palestinians/hamas/ certain arabs are guiltless( looking beyond 10/7) but at some point in the daily slaughter; somebody HAS to call bullshit look at the reaction from Israel regarding UN Sec words about the "vacuum", it seems anytime sentiment runs contrary to Israeli beliefs/interests its "anti-semitism" or "holocaust and right to exist" yet they have been doing what happened to their ancestors, yet a free pass seems to be constantly given

At risk of oversimplifying: US cannot keep this up, and sure as hell cannot just keep up the "we stand with Israel(see votes at home) no matter what"; they MAY be our friends, but even friends can be wrong and eff up now and again. that blind allegiance could be what earns OUR Citizens another 9-11 in the future.

get a cease fire, hostages returned, Israel cedes certain lands for palestinian state, or since in the past this hasnt seemed to work, its all one Nation and Palestinians are to be granted and guaranteed full and equal Citizenship and participation( except any proven Hamas members....they can burn in hell); Hamas/arab Nations( that arent helping their fellow innocent arabs) are told, accept it or accept the palestinians. Further make it clear to all parties, no matter which one breaks the peace first, no US dollars, arms or troops will be involved,no half-stepping, itll be a FAFO-slug it out until only one stands event.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Adam

[Elizabeth Whitehouse 18]

1 hour ago, Chris said:

Seems reasonable to me.

And how do you do that without many civilian deaths?

[Elizabeth Whitehouse 18]

On 10/24/2023 at 10:45 PM, Hal said:

Your words ring very Un American now

Yes. I am un-American. I find very little to like about this country.

[Elizabeth Whitehouse 18]

On 10/24/2023 at 10:40 PM, Adam said:

the sheer stupidity of that statement is simply mind-boggling 

OK. Defend your position. Why is Israel right and the rest of the world wrong?

Edited October 26, 2023 by Elizabeth Whitehouse

[Hal 341]

We have a new Speaker of the House Finally… Now to move forward in more ways than one . 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Hal
Trying to hand out Brooms…

[MsKreed 1,186]

10 hours ago, Adam said:

"Settlers have been slowly taking smaller percentages than that for years but:

 To openly state such a goal would be almost as moronic as calling hamas "freedom fighters" wouldnt it?

I'm not familiar with what you're referencing here. Can you share it? Without it, my reply below may be completely off-point from what you're talking about. 

My peripheral understanding has been that disputes between Israeli settlers and Palestinians have been sporadic for years......but the Israel government has built walls and implemented (extremely sophisticated) security to maintain a delineated "border", particularly since the 2006 election of Hamas to govern Gaza. 

Meanwhile Hamas (the elected government that openly states it does want to conquer all Israeli held land) is the entity that's been relentlessly trying to dig under and climb over the wall into Israel.

If intrusion from settlers was the primary problem for Palestinians, then why would their government (Hamas) be doing everything possible to breach the border instead of trying to secure it to protect from settlers?

And conversely, if the Israeli government wanted to facilitate settlers’ expansion into Gaza, they’d not likely have been the ones obstructing any and all crossings outside the points of entry (where Palestinians were reportedly welcomed to enter for work to the tune of 20k per day, or seek refuge from brutal punishment if they’re gay).

[TTL News 308]

Quote

 

RAFAH, Gaza Strip (AP) — Israeli troops and tanks briefly raided northern Gaza overnight into Thursday, the military said, striking several militant targets in order to “prepare the battlefield” before a widely expected ground invasion after more than two weeks of devastating airstrikes.

The raid came after the U.N. warned that’s it’s on the verge of running out of fuel in the Gaza Strip, forcing it to sharply curtail relief efforts. Gaza has been under a brutal siege — running out of food, water and medicine — since Hamas’ bloody rampage across southern Israel earlier this month ignited the war.

 

Source

[Chris 2,180]

I'm really surprised they haven't launched more of a ground effort yet. 

[TTL News 308]

HAIFA, Israel — While concern over the humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip mounts, another undercurrent of alarm is growing in Washington and other Western capitals: Israel’s bombardment could spread into a wider regional war — one involving regional superpower Iran or its proxy forces.

On Sunday, Iranian President Ebrahim Raisi said on X that Israel had “crossed the red lines, which may force everyone to take action.”
 

Source

[TTL News 308]

NBC news is reporting that “thousands” of Palestinian civilians broke into a UN warehouse in Gaza searching for food or anything else they could find. 

[Hal 341]

1 hour ago, Elmira Telegram said:

NBC news is reporting that “thousands” of Palestinian civilians broke into a UN warehouse in Gaza searching for food or anything else they could find. 

I am of two thoughts on this .

#1 and most important is those people were doing just any of us would do in an effort to feed or care for our families especially children … the real victims of any war ! I mean , what the hell was the UN waiting for … photo ops for some old bastards handing out crumbs ? 
#2 then again the Hamas cowards are known , and have proven , they will take anything from their own people to keep themselves fed and provisioned ! 
But at least its not sitting in a building going to waste or being blasted all to hell . YMMV. 

[Zapp Brannigan 139]

On 10/26/2023 at 1:38 AM, Elizabeth Whitehouse said:

Yes. I am un-American. I find very little to like about this country.

If you don't like it then why are you still here? Plenty of other countries you can go to so don't let the doorknob hit you where the good lord split you!!

[Elizabeth Whitehouse 18]

7 hours ago, Zapp Brannigan said:

If you don't like it then why are you still here? Plenty of other countries you can go to so don't let the doorknob hit you where the good lord split you!!

I am still here because, for better or worse, this has been home for nearly forty years.  I have three children and two grandchildren. I some very good friends, a lovely house and a natural garden 25 years in the making.  One can lead a perfectly acceptable life with friends and interests without much liking the way the country is run. And without much liking a good percentage of the population.

[Ann 264]

17 hours ago, Elizabeth Whitehouse said:

One can lead a perfectly acceptable life with friends and interests without much liking the way the country is run. And without much liking a good percentage of the population.

I can agree with your first statement.  I don’t believe there are very many Americans who are happy with the way this Country is run on a National, State or local level.  The good thing is that the people can change things with their votes.

I don’t agree with lumping “a good percentage of the population” together.  Unfortunately, with social media and the need for instant gratification, the loudest voices are the ones heard.   I do not believe the majority of Americans agree with what is shown on the news.  When you can’t have open, honest, respectful discussions without shouting down those whose opinion may differ, no one will learn anything.  I still believe that the majority of Americans are good, hard working, kind and generous people.

America is not perfect but the principles that founded this Country are what makes America a great Nation.  Thousands of men and women since this Nation’s founding have believed enough to serve and sometimes die for this Country and its people.  To denigrate, in any way that service is simply disrespectful but anyone’s right to do so.  We, as a people, are able to express openly our views and opinions, no matter how disagreeable some may find them because of those who were and are willing to serve to protect those rights.  

We have had troubled times in the past and we learned from those mistakes.  We are in troubled times now but I have hope and a strong belief we will learn and do better in the coming years.  

[Elizabeth Whitehouse 18]

To Ann,

Taking your points one by one: I can't argue with your first paragraph, except for the voting bit. The two party system really doesn't work. Not when one of the two parties seems hell-bent on doing away with democracy. The people who do not identify with one of the major parties out-weighs the adherents to either one. Ranked choice voting (and NO electoral college) would enable dissenting voices to express their positions.

Yes, the majority of Americans are "good, hard working, kind and generous people"  And, yes, "the loudest voices are the ones heard". But those voices are not just a small minority. They represent at least one-third of the population.  I think that is a problem.

we will have to agree to disagree on the paragraph about armed service. I am 120% a pacifist and I do not think that any war is justified. World War II being the exception, can you give a couple of examples of armed conflict that served the interests of the American people, and not the military-industrial complex?

 

[TTL News 308]

Let's not derail yet another topic with off-topic chat. Keep the conversation applicable to the situation in Israel.