The Middle East

[Ann 269]

1 hour ago, Elmira Telegram said:

Let's not derail yet another topic with off-topic chat. Keep the conversation applicable to the situation in Israel. 

I believe there is enough blame to be shared equally by both sides.  I also believe that if left to the every day average Israeli and Palestinian, they would be able to co-exist.  I have to believe they want the same things: live, raise families, worship in their own way.

 The problem is with the radicals, on all sides.  These groups are so wrapped up in their ideology that they even treat their own Muslim countrymen and women badly let alone so called non-believers.  What are you supposed to do when you have these groups and some Arab countries calling for the elimination of another group of people?   Certainly we can pull back aid to Israel and let them take on the radicals themselves.  What happens if Israel is eliminated?  Who will be next on the terrorist hit list?  Do we get involved if it’s another Mediterranean country?  A European country?   Why aren’t the more moderate Arab nations doing more to  try to rein in these groups?

I don’t have the answers.  I do know that I am so angry that after two World Wars we haven’t learned a damn thing.  I am so angry that once again we define ourselves by religion, ethnicity, ideology, politics, power, instead of what we are.  Human beings who just want to live our lives without fear of what will happen next.  The human race has been pretty much a patriarchal society since it’s beginning and how has that worked out for us?    Perhaps it’s time for that to change.  

[Chris 2,201]

You don't have 8 billion people on a planet with finite resources without constant conflict.

We like to think of ourselves as above the rest of the animals of the world, but we're still animals. And what happens when any other animal surpasses the carrying capacity of any given area? Why would humans be any different?

Doesn't mean it doesn't suck, but it's just the way it is. 

[Ann 269]

15 minutes ago, Chris said:

You don't have 8 billion people on a planet with finite resources without constant conflict.

We like to think of ourselves as above the rest of the animals of the world, but we're still animals. And what happens when any other animal surpasses the carrying capacity of any given area? Why would humans be any different?

Doesn't mean it doesn't suck, but it's just the way it is. 

You’re right, it sucks.  
This weird idea popped into my head, remove all the children in the area to safety, let all the men and women duke  it out physically, face to face.  Put your fists (no weapons) where your ideology is, last ones standing wins. Before anyone calls me out, I know this is a ridiculous idea.  War has become so easy when you don’t see who you are killing.  Push a button, drop a bomb, roll your tanks.  Kill and destroy everything in sight and claim victory.  

 

[Chris 2,201]

I’m seeing a lot of speculation that things are about to get sporty after the Marines announced the annual ball has been canceled:

[TTL News 313]

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For more than four decades, Iran’s rulers have pledged to destroy Israel. The supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, rarely appears in public without wearing a black-and-white checkered Palestinian kaffiyeh.

Iranian military commanders gloat over training and arming groups across the region that are enemies of Israel, including Hezbollah and Hamas. And when Hamas conducted the Oct. 7 terror attack on Israel that killed 1,400 people, Iranian officials praised it as a momentous achievement, shattering the Jewish state’s sense of security.

Now Iran faces a dilemma, weighing how it and its proxy militias — known as the axis of resistance — should respond to Israel’s invasion of Gaza and the killing of thousands of Palestinians, and whether to bolster its revolutionary credentials at the risk of igniting a broader regional war.

 

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[Ann 269]

Be careful of what you ask for, you may get it along with the dire consequences of asking.

[TTL News 313]

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Israel’s decision to allow a daily four-hour humanitarian pause in combat operations in northern Gaza is “very cynical and cruel,” the U.N. special rapporteur on the Palestinian territories said today. 

“There has been continuous bombings, 6,000 bombs every week on the Gaza Strip, on this tiny piece of land where people are trapped and the destruction is massive," Francesca Albanese told reporters in the Australian city of Adelaide. "There won’t be any way back after what Israel is doing to the Gaza Strip.”

 

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[Ann 269]

Damned if they do and damned if they don’t.

[TTL News 313]

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More than 36 hours into a raid on Gaza’s Al-Shifa Hospital, an Israel Defense Forces spokesperson has told CNN that troops remain active both “inside and in the vicinity of the hospital complex.”

"Special forces are (conducting) very specific, contained operations,” the spokesperson said, in pursuit of what they believe to be Hamas infrastructure in the area of the complex.

The spokesperson said operations were being carried out without disturbing hospital patients.

Israel is under growing international pressure to uncover proof of what it has previously described as a Hamas command and control center under the hospital.

So far, it has been able to present firearms, body armor, and a laptop described as containing incriminating material, among other items, from its raid on the hospital.

But there has been no indication yet that Israeli forces have found tunnel shafts leading to the sort of multi-layered network of tunnels and underground chambers that officials have repeatedly suggested they expect to uncover.

The claim about tunnels under the complex has been denied by the militant group and hospital officials.

 

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[TTL News 313]

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A cease-fire agreement between the Hamas militant group and Israel has been confirmed by both parties, along with Washington and Qatar, which helped broker the deal that would bring a temporary halt to the devastating war that is now in its seventh week.

The Israeli government said that under an outline of the deal, Hamas is to free over a four-day period at least 50 of the roughly 240 hostages taken in its Oct. 7 attack on Israel, and Israel is to release some Palestinian prisoners in exchange. Egyptian state media say the truce will begin Thursday morning. Egypt helped mediate the cease-fire agreement, which would bring the first respite to war-weary Palestinians in Gaza, where more than 11,000 people have been killed, according to health authorities.

 

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[TTL News 313]

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Israel and Hamas are preparing for a fourth exchange of militant-held hostages for Palestinians imprisoned by Israel, as mediators seek to extend a cease-fire in Gaza that is set to expire after Monday.

On Sunday, Hamas freed 17 more hostages — 14 Israelis and three Thais — in a third exchange under the four-day truce. In turn, Israel released 39 Palestinian prisoners.

Of the roughly 240 hostages captured by Hamas in its Oct. 7 attack in southern Israelthat ignited the war, 62 have been released, one was freed by Israeli forces and two were found dead inside Gaza.

 

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[TTL News 313]

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Israel resumed fighting in Gaza minutes after a temporary cease-fire deal ended, and accused Hamas of having violated the truce. Hamas blames Israel, saying it declined offers to free more hostages. Mediator Qatar said Friday that efforts are ongoing to renew an Israel-Hamas cease-fire and expressed “deep regret” over the resumption of Israeli bombardments.

Over 100 hostages were freed during the seven-day truce, most of whom appear physically well but shaken. Israel says 115 adult men, 20 women and two children are still held hostage. The 240 Palestinians released under the cease-fire were mostly teenagers accused of throwing stones and firebombs during confrontations with Israeli forces.

 

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[Adam 375]

16 minutes ago, Elmira Telegram said:

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I think in this instance, id have to think it was Israel that initiated. they've been saying all along that they would continue operations. relative "peace" for too long and any excuse to continue military action would likely find much less support. with hostages still in hama's possession Israel maintains cover.

 

[TTL News 313]

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RAFAH, Gaza Strip (AP) — Israeli warplanes struck parts of the Gaza Strip overnight into Saturday in relentless bombardments, including some of the dwindling slivers of land Palestinians had been told to evacuate to in the territory’s south.

The latest strikes came a day after the United States vetoed a United Nations resolution demanding an immediate humanitarian cease-fire in Gaza, despite it being backed by the vast majority of Security Council members and many other nations. The vote in the 15-member council was 13-1, with the United Kingdom abstaining.

 

Ap News

[TTL News 313]

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WASHINGTON (AP) — President Joe Biden on Tuesday warned that Israel was losing international support because of its “indiscriminate bombing” of Gaza, speaking out in unusually strong language as the United Nations neared a vote on demanding a cease-fire in the Israel-Hamas war. 

“Israel’s security can rest on the United States, but right now it has more than the United States. It has the European Union, it has Europe, it has most of the world supporting them,” Biden said to donors during a fundraiser Tuesday. 

“They’re starting to lose that support by indiscriminate bombing that takes place,” he said. 

 

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[TTL News 313]

Israel can and will ignore US appeals to minimize casualties in Gaza

Israeli army soldiers take up positions near the border with the Gaza Strip on Dec. 11, 2023,. Menahem Kahana/AFP via Getty Images

Gregory F. Treverton, USC Dornsife College of Letters, Arts and Sciences

While the Biden administration has maintained its strong support of Israel’s war aim of eliminating Hamas in Gaza, that support has for weeks been tempered by statements from U.S. officials saying Israel needs to minimize deaths of civilians as it continues fighting.

Those mild rebukes appear to have been ignored by the Israelis. Their continued widespread bombing has raised the death toll in Gaza, according to the Hamas-run Health Ministry, to 18,600. And the growing tension between Biden and Israel’s leader, Benjamin Netanyahu, broke into the open on Dec. 12. Biden warned Israel that it is “losing support” over the war. Netanyahu publicly disagreed with the U.S. goal of having the Palestinian Authority run Gaza.

The Conversation’s senior politics and democracy editor Naomi Schalit interviewed Gregory F. Treverton of USC Dornsife, a former chairman of the National Intelligence Council in the Obama administration, about the divisions between Israel and the U.S. In the end, Israel’s behavior, says Treverton, shows “the limits of influence” the U.S. holds.

U.S. President Joe Biden, left, and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu meet in Tel Aviv, Israel, on Oct. 18, 2023. Anadolu via Getty Images

The U.S. has criticized Israel’s conduct of the war. Israel has ignored that criticism. That looks like humiliation for the Biden administration. What is going on?

This is a pattern we’ve seen before. We saw it in the war Israel fought against Hezbollah in Lebanon in 2006. The U.S. was trying to push Israel to be more humane in the way they conducted that war. So while the disagreement is not especially new, it is not just humiliating but also shows the limits of influence.

Indeed, throughout the U.S.-Israeli relationship, there has been a lot of the tail wagging the dog. Israel has been good at playing American politics. And so it is hard to put the kind of pressure on Israel that the objective facts would suggest the U.S. should be able to wield. After all, Israel is by far the biggest recipient of U.S. foreign aid. And the U.S. has stood with Israel firmly for a very long time. So to that extent, it is a bit humiliating that all that apparent influence doesn’t get listened to.

Is Israel, as you say, “very good at this” because they they live in a rough neighborhood, or because of the pressure domestic politics plays on Biden? What gives them the power to do this?

Surely it is partly the rough neighborhood – Israelis certainly see themselves as living in a very rough neighborhood. So the typical pattern is the U.S. says “go easier.” Israel says “give us a few more days.” That was the pattern in 2006 and has been the pattern this time – Israel asks for a little bit more time to accomplish its military objective. But if its ability to ignore U.S. demands stems primarily from living in a rough neighborhood, Israel does have a lot of influence in the United States. Majorities in both parties in Congress support Israel, though there is increasing dissent over that support on college campuses and elsewhere. In a recent Pew poll, four times as many Democrats as Republicans in the U.S. thought Israel was going too far in its military operation.

Biden recently said Israel is “losing support” over the war and its “indiscriminate bombing of Gaza.” Netanyahu said the Palestinian Authority will never run Gaza, despite U.S. support for that idea. What does this more open division tell us?

It tells us that things are getting worse between the two countries for sure. It obviously reflects the frustration on Biden’s part and the administration’s part. It is a marker, I think, of how isolated Israel is now in global public opinion and is obviously taking the U.S. with it. So that’s a big source of frustration for the administration. It really is time for some kind of cease-fire again, and maybe another release of some hostages. But that doesn’t seem in the cards soon.

What are Biden’s options at this point? It sounds like you’re saying Biden doesn’t have much that he can do. And, in fact, it looks like within Israel, Netanyahu – whose government may fall once the war slows or ends – is using Biden’s disapproval to shore up his political standing with his right-wing supporters.

Certainly, Netanyahu’s playing to the right makes the problem even harder for the Biden administration. Netanyahu’s problem is more his right flank than Washington. And so that makes it difficult for the U.S. to exert the kind of influence it should. And we still don’t have an understanding of what the Israeli sense of the endgame is. On the current track, they wind up, it seems, occupying Gaza. They surely don’t want to do that. My guess is behind the scenes the Israelis are thinking about some option involving the Palestinian Authority, even though Israel says it wants no part of that.

Biden went to a fundraiser the other day and told attendees that Netanyahu was the leader of “the most conservative government in Israel’s history” that “doesn’t want a two-state solution” to the Palestinian conflict. “I think he has to change, and with this government, this government in Israel is making it very difficult for him to move,” Biden said. When a president makes such a statement in a fundraiser, it’s not going to remain secret. What an extraordinary thing for a head of state to say about another government.

It amounts in some sense to calling for regime change in Israel. We all assume that once the war is over, Netanyahu will be gone. But obviously if he has any thoughts of staying on, he does need to think about a different coalition. World opinion is going to force him to think seriously about the Palestinians, if not about a two-state solution. Whatever else has happened, Hamas certainly succeeded in its objective of getting the Palestinians’ desire for statehood back on the global agenda. And Netanyahu is going to have to deal with that at some point.

A group of Palestinian men look at the destruction of buildings following Israeli airstrikes in the southern Gaza Strip on Dec. 1, 2023, Said Khatib/AFP via Getty Images)

What are the elements that Biden has to consider as he manages this situation going into the future?

He starts with generally strong American support for Israel that cuts across both parties. But the thing he needs to cope with is the increasing concern among progressives, especially young people in the Democratic Party, that there’s way too much suffering by the Palestinians, that something has to be done. And now it seems to me there’s almost a global consensus that this war needs to end. That’s the challenge that the administration faces: to try and heed that global consensus while letting Israel do the things it feels it needs to do in Gaza.

And that’s really an impossible circle for Biden to square. President Lyndon Johnson used to say that sometimes being president was like being a mule in a hailstorm. “There’s nothing to do but to stand there and take it,” he said.

Gregory F. Treverton, Professor of Practice in International Relations, USC Dornsife College of Letters, Arts and Sciences

This article is republished from The Conversation under a Creative Commons license. Read the original article.

[Chris 2,201]

IDF admits they mistakingly killed three hostages.

Hamas fired long range rockets on Jerusalem.

 

Yeah, this is a complete shit show.

[Adam 375]

interesting videos of Israeli "settlers" raiding Palestinian olive groves, with IDF/Police standing by(guard) then once the crops are gone, destroying the trees. other stories, documented independently, of palestinians that have owned land for generations being barred from accessing it  by IDF/police due to the war activity, yet "settlers" are given free access.

in the old city, right-wing jewish groups are in the streets celebrating holidays, they also have paraded through arab neighborhoods while arabs are not allowed to to to the grand mosque or are ordered to close their businesses due to war related claims or to make sure those parades are marched without issue.

this along with palestinians being told to go south for safety from fighting, now either being bombed, or herded into overcrowded and unsanitary areas for their "safety" kind of points to Israel of maybe having aspirations of gaining real estate more than eliminating hamas and what they are doing to palestinians now is awfully reminiscent of Poland 1938.

[TTL News 313]

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NEW YORK (AP) — Pro-Palestinian protesters briefly blocked entrance roads to airports in New York and Los Angeles on Wednesday, snarling traffic as U.S. airlines contended with a rush of holiday travel. 

The demonstrations stopped cars on the outskirts of New York’s John F. Kennedy International Airport, where some travelers set off on foot to bypass the jammed roadway, as well as Los Angeles International Airport. A total of 62 people were arrested during the two protests, police said.

In New York, activists locked arms and held banners demanding an end to the Israel-Hamas war and expanded rights for Palestinians, bringing traffic to a standstill on the Van Wyck Expressway leading up to the airport for about 20 minutes.

 

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[Chris 2,201]

What do these idiots think they're going to accomplish with this other than pissing off a lot of people? 

[KarenK 384]

20 minutes ago, Chris said:

What do these idiots think they're going to accomplish with this other than pissing off a lot of people? 

Just seems like everyone forgot that Hamas started this whole thing.

[Adam 375]

4 hours ago, KarenK said:

Just seems like everyone forgot that Hamas started this whole thing.

true, however, no one is twisting Israel's arm to continue its indiscriminate slaughter of an entire population. telling people to evacuate to certain "safe" areas, only to then bomb the shit out of those very areas. changing the definition of victory from eradicating hamas( impossible anyways), to now in addition; end radicalization etc sets up goals that are unrealistic as well as impossible to objectively measure...it is pretense for land grabs and frankly, Israel( or the Zionist factions of its leadership) are doing almost EXACTLY that which was done to their parents/grandparents.

Ones right to exist should not be an excuse to eradicate another's 

[MsKreed 1,199]

45 minutes ago, Adam said:

Ones right to exist should not be an excuse to eradicate another's 

And that is the issue that's been un-resolved since 1948 when Palestinians (PLO, then Hamas) began their campaign to exist 'from the river to the sea' by attempting to eradicate Israel.  

Without defending reports of indiscriminate bombing by the IDF, one must be careful not to let that be used as reason to condone the barbaric acts that Hamas has carried out on large scale....like the f%$k-sticks like "Queers for Palestine" marching across campuses and "protesting" by disrupting traffic, etc. 

(Warning: this video link contains extremely graphic descriptions of incidents that the NY Times has investigated and independently verified...Weaponized Sexual Violence).

[Chris 2,201]

Israel’s response to the atrocities committed in October could be considered appropriate compared to what I think I’d want to do in that scenario.

For thousands of years, one group’s ability to exist came at the expense of another’s. Excuses, reasons… all depends on one’s perspective and place in the story I suppose. 

[Chris 2,201]

50 minutes ago, MsKreed said:

(Warning: this video link contains extremely graphic descriptions of incidents that the NY Times has investigated and independently verified...Weaponized Sexual Violence).

The descriptions in that article are horrifically disturbing.