Brand Park Pool

[Adam 373]

On 8/19/2023 at 7:28 PM, Elizabeth Whitehouse said:

Did those individuals and groups do their own studies, or did they rely on a report from Fagan Engineering which put a price to fix it based on what their charge would be? There are other ways. For example, a team of masons/building trades students could spearhead the project with volunteers to scrape and paint and do grunt work under supervision.

that greenery is not mere shrubbery, but near 20+ foot trees that not only have grown through the concrete, but established root systems, that even once the above ground bits are cut, will/can disrupt the soil beneath for years to come. No one is necessarily poo-pooing your sentiment; its just 3 or 4 decades too late. the above picture precludes any need for an independent study and certainly, as anyone with the slightest experience in trades-work, is well beyond Journeyman level, let alone student/grunt level.

its time to knock it down and look to more fruitful uses of the area

[Adam 373]

On 7/27/2023 at 1:50 PM, Accountability said:

Yesterday, I wrote to the current mayor and city council the following letter. I hope you will support my proposal to examine all possibilities of rehabilitating and using the building prior to making a decision to tear it down:

July 26, 2023

Open letter to Mayor Mandell and members of the Elmira city council

It has come to my attention that you are intending to proceed with the demolition of the Brand Park pool. I object to this unwise decision and ask that no action be taken until after the election.

First, the pool is of historic importance to the City. It is one of very few swimming pools like it left in the U.S., and it is a monument of great meaning to the many Elmirans who used to swim there. Second, you have yet to justify this demolition to the people. And have you investigated the cost of restoration? Have you asked for and received bids to restore or rehabilitate the facility? Have you looked into grants for historic preservation or considered the possibility of a capital fund-raising appeal to the citizens of Elmira? Have you asked Elmirans what they think of this ill-advised proposal?

Tearing this building down is tearing apart the fabric of what gives meaning to Elmira and to our communities. It is the last resort that should be taken. We must first consider restoring it as a swimming pool, and if that turns out to be impossible, we should next attempt to retrofit the building, retain its historic value, and use, appreciate, and value it. Retaining this unique and valuable facility will give many returns to our city in the future, while tearing it down will erase any future tourist and recreational opportunities or any historic interest it might offer.

As a candidate for mayor of Elmira, I believe that all options should be thoroughly investigated before embarking on the proposed resolution, and that Elmirans should be able to voice their opinions on the issue; therefore, I ask that the proposed demolition be suspended until after the election in November.

many of us here do not live in the City, so no real dogs in the hunt beyond academic discussion. that said; i would ask you, as a candidate, if you become Mayor what would your plan be for that structure/area? what funding sources, or limits to the budget involved would you confine the taxpayers of Elmira to? Timeline and deadlines; as this isnt the first go-round for the pool topic.

keep in mind

1.many of those in the City with any nostalgia are too old to be using a future pool at the site, and given the criminal activity/homeless issues, are not likely to take grandkids there either.

2. Im sure popular opinion amongst residents of the area WOULD support the construction of a new pool there however, anecdotally, majority of those residents do not pay property taxes, or are in financial position to offer financial assistance to the project. leaving many property owners on the hook for tax monies that could be better used (with smarter, actual leadership of the City) to bring sustainable economic changes to the area.

your heart is likely in the right place and while honoring the past is important, Elmira has to quit living in and blaming the past, and move forward.

[Elizabeth Whitehouse 18]

Those trees have only grown since the pool was abandoned in 2005. That would have been the time to begin renovations or find another use for the structure. The modus operandi of Elmira seems to be - when faced with an unwanted or otherwise troublesome structure - is to do nothing. Let it rot until the only solution is to tear it down. And I'm hugely bothered by that phrase. You don't get rid of buildings with a bulldozer or wrecking ball. They should be deconstructed. Much,  if not most, of the material can be re-used in some way. Or marketed as souvenirs. I imagine there are people who would like one of the letters for nostalgic reasons.

The problem here is lack of imagination.  What if one abandoned the idea of resuscitating a pool, and just preserved (and restored) the shell? It is a historically significant structure. The story of these above ground pools is fascinating. Weatherproof panels could be incorporated (inside or outside) to tell their story. History is important. This pool was part of Elmira's glory days. And could certainly be included in a tourist itinerary, but that's a subject for another day.

What if one turned it into a (community) garden? Or café, or ice cream stand?

[Elizabeth Whitehouse 18]

I am not the candidate, but I am his campaign manager, so I feel entitled to answer.

You say "many of those in the City with any nostalgia are too old to be using a future pool at the site, and given the criminal activity/homeless issues, are not likely to take grandkids there either. "  The too old claim is not true. The pool closed in 2005. That means that the kids enjoying the pool then are now in their 20s and 30s. They remember.

Can you elaborate on the criminal activity/homeless issues occurring in Brand Park?

[Elizabeth Whitehouse 18]

Parks are a HUGE resource. Rather, the open spaces they represent are. But they are trees (usually non-native) and grass (definitely non-native) with, perhaps, some swings etc. They could become much-needed carbon sinks: replace grass with wildflowers, add native fruit trees, create teaching spaces (labels), encourage wildlife and biodiversity, create walking paths. Add some interesting features. Add a community/communal garden. Create a compost facility.

[Chris 2,161]

1 hour ago, Elizabeth Whitehouse said:

What if one abandoned the idea of resuscitating a pool, and just preserved (and restored) the shell?

Okay, this seems like a viable alternative. But again, is the cost of restoration worth the actual use anyone would get out of it? 

If a private entity wanted to look into using it for an ice cream stand or something, fine. I would not want to see any tax dollars go to that though. 

I have to suspect there's no one out there willing to take on the task or restoration and retrofitting the shell into something they could use. I wouldn't say there's a "lack of imagination" so much as a realization that it's too far gone. 

And while I don't want to poo-poo your idea about the building materials, again we have to look at the quality of them. I suspect you'd be hard pressed to get code enforcement to allow re-use of most, if not all, of those materials for any structure that would be occupied. Garden beds however, possibly, I don't know. I'm not a mason and haven't seen the condition of the brick. 

[Zapp Brannigan 137]

Those trees really would not be much work to remove the city should really fund the whole project and renew this wonderful historic site. 5-6 good working volunteers could hammer out most of the work in a weekend or 2. The city really needs to get its priorities straight!!

[Adam 373]

4 hours ago, Elizabeth Whitehouse said:

Parks are a HUGE resource. Rather, the open spaces they represent are. But they are trees (usually non-native) and grass (definitely non-native) with, perhaps, some swings etc. They could become much-needed carbon sinks: replace grass with wildflowers, add native fruit trees, create teaching spaces (labels), encourage wildlife and biodiversity, create walking paths. Add some interesting features. Add a community/communal garden. Create a compost facility.

you'll get no argument from anyone here on that account. 

as the campaign manager, you may find more support for your candidate with that approach rather than the pool. the visual appeal as well as there are more growing months than for swimming; it shows a grasp on ROI and community involvement

[Kevin 334]

On 8/22/2023 at 9:18 PM, Elizabeth Whitehouse said:

Are lifeguards necessary?

I mean unless you want kids drowning, I would say they are. And no insurance company will cover the pool without life guards on duty.

[Elizabeth Whitehouse 18]

 I'm not sure how to answer that. The pool belongs to the City and therefore does not need to be insured by a rapacious company. Kids who can't swim should only be in the pool with close adult supervision, whether there is a life guard or not. By that I mean, the adult should be in the pool with them. And all children should be accompanied by an adult. Public pools are normally mixed swim - that is all ages mixed together.

 

[Hal 341]

23 hours ago, Elizabeth Whitehouse said:

Can you elaborate on the criminal activity/homeless issues occurring in Brand Park?

No disrespect intended here … that is a beautiful area no doubt but … I would invite you to to spend a few nights , or days walking that park especially during warm weather when the area is most , lets say , populated. The average person doesnt have any idea of what goes on there as most of the incidents go unreported , at least by local Network Media and /or not responded to by the understaffed Local Law Enforcement. Maybe as campaign manager the fact that Law Enforcement are understaffed might be a better soap box on which  your Candidate could stand , good way to get folks back to the frame of mind to go to the Park once rehabilitated .
Back to topic . Yes there is and has been Total “ lack of imagination “ on the part of the powers that be , movers and shakers , call them what you will , here in the County not just the City . 

[Elizabeth Whitehouse 18]

Two points here. First, I lived on Gaines Street for a year and almost always took Robinson St, which meant that I drove around the park at least twice a day. I also knocked on every door along the periphery. Not one person mentioned "incidents".  If not many people use it, it could be that the playground and the skate area are in very poor condition, and the splash pad doesn't work.  Not much to go for.

As for the understaffed Local Law Enforcement. If Elmira followed the national average ratio of police to population, we would have 52 officers. Elmira has 73. They are not understaffed. 

I may start a separate thread to give my other views about the police!

[Chris 2,161]

I think for any honest and serious conversation about the pool, or what's left of it, to move forward, we have to do a couple things:

1. Admit that as a pool, it's done. 
2. Realize that over the past 20 years, others have tried and failed to find ways to save it when it was remotely salvageable. They didn't or couldn't, so there's obviously a reason. 
3. Municipal pools are a waste of taxpayer dollars from the outset. Why spend millions on something that is only in use two, maybe three months out of the year and for a limited population in the first place?
4. If there was enough true concern for this thing, either on the city's part or the citizenry, things wouldn't have gotten to this point in the first place. 
5. Go back and re-read #1. 

Anything else is simply beating the horses skeleton. 

[Hal 341]

56 minutes ago, Elizabeth Whitehouse said:

As for the understaffed Local Law Enforcement. If Elmira followed the national average ratio of police to population, we would have 52 officers. Elmira has 73. They are not understaffed. 

I may start a separate thread to give my other views about the police!

Please do ,if only to avoid going off topic here . 

[MsKreed 1,179]

2 hours ago, Chris said:

Municipal pools are a waste of taxpayer dollars from the outset. Why spend millions on something that is only in use two, maybe three months out of the year and for a limited population in the first place?

While I understand this point, specifically in relation to municipal pools.....I have to disagree with the premise that just because seasonal public recreation is only utilized by a limited population, it is necessarily a waste of taxpayer dollars.

When it’s something like Youth Hockey, where the  fees start at $300-400 plus the cost of equipment?  Yes, I agree that’s a waste of taxpayer dollars. In that case we are talking about a “limited population” that is a niche group of middle-class families who pretty much have the means to participate in whatever recreation they choose.

Wanting to stay cool isn’t confined to a niche group like hockey. It’s a pretty universal recreation. That’s why there are 10 million residential/privately owned pools in the US.....compared to 300,000 municipal pools.

And with a public summer aquatic recreation (whether a pool, splash park or lake with public swimming, etc)  the “limited population” utilizing them is often a demographic that has limited options to cool off at an affordable cost.

Urban and low income residents are less likely to have “private” options than suburban or rural homeowners (more and more of whom have a backyard pool) and those living in middle-class condo/apartment complexes with a pool.

So, while green, educational use of the space is great, and perhaps some commercial use (café, ice cream stand, etc)......I think a water feature should also be part of the plan.

Some sort of splash park, with and play areas and multiple splashpads (that actually work) is far less construction cost, staffing, operational costs and considerations, and safety/liability concerns than a pool. And, although it may not be used by a huge segment of the City’s population.....I think it would be good for the community.

[Chris 2,161]

7 minutes ago, MsKreed said:

While I understand this point, specifically in relation to municipal pools.....I have to disagree with the premise that just because seasonal public recreation is only utilized by a limited population, it is necessarily a waste of taxpayer dollars.

I get your point. 

But when I think of how something like this would be funded, it aint gonna just be on the city's dime. They'll end up with money from the county one way or the other. And I don't wanna pay for it. It aint like I'm gonna drive 5-10 miles to utilize it ( which is what I meant by limited group of people ).

[Adam 373]

11 hours ago, Elizabeth Whitehouse said:

 I'm not sure how to answer that. The pool belongs to the City and therefore does not need to be insured by a rapacious company. Kids who can't swim should only be in the pool with close adult supervision, whether there is a life guard or not. By that I mean, the adult should be in the pool with them. And all children should be accompanied by an adult. Public pools are normally mixed swim - that is all ages mixed together.

 

i mean this with all due respect; you cannot be serious

[Elizabeth Whitehouse 18]

I am absolutely serious. Parents don't want their children to drown. So they need to keep an eye on them. A swimming pool is not daycare, where you drop the kids off for a couple of hours expecting other people to watch them.

 

[Chris 2,161]

[MsKreed 1,179]

55 minutes ago, Elizabeth Whitehouse said:

I am absolutely serious. Parents don't want their children to drown. So they need to keep an eye on them. A swimming pool is not daycare, where you drop the kids off for a couple of hours expecting other people to watch them.

Unfortunately, many parents do not provide sufficient supervision for their children.

And when their own inattentiveness results in tragedy....some of those negligent parents file large lawsuits against the entities that own and operate the pool. Even in cases where the parents were there "keeping an eye on their child".

 

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/courts/2021/02/10/jacksonville-parents-sue-daytona-wave-pool-over-drowning-death-son/6703616002/

https://www.wmbfnews.com/2020/06/10/parents-year-old-drowning-victim-sue-myrtle-beach-hotel/

https://www.khou.com/article/news/katy-family-files-lawsuit-after-boy-drowns-in-neighborhood-pool/285-b9162494-46d6-4133-9260-3806059e3923

[Elizabeth Whitehouse 18]

You are right. Some parents do not provide sufficient supervision for their children - the the pool or elsewhere. My point is that, with enough teenagers and adults in the pool, "tragedy" is very unlikely to happen.

[Elizabeth Whitehouse 18]

Someone also told me that one of the reasons the pool was built in the first place was that kids were swimming in the river and drowning.

[MsKreed 1,179]

7 minutes ago, Elizabeth Whitehouse said:

Someone also told me that one of the reasons the pool was built in the first place was that kids were swimming in the river and drowning.

Im not sure about Brand...but I do know that was the case with Thorne Street pool in the Village of Horseheads.  

The goal was to provide a safe supervised place for kids spending summer days running around with neighbor kids, instead of local creeks and ponds. Hence the expectation of having trained lifeguards on duty like every other municipal pool that I have ever known of....

Brand, Thorne Street, West Elmira, Harris Hill, Dennison Park....every town in the Midwest that I ever lived in or visited.  🌞

[KarenK 383]

1 hour ago, Elizabeth Whitehouse said:

I am absolutely serious. Parents don't want their children to drown. So they need to keep an eye on them. A swimming pool is not daycare, where you drop the kids off for a couple of hours expecting other people to watch them.

 

Wow.  Just wow.  You need to check more "public" pools out.  Horseheads has one.  My grandkids walk over to it all the time.  They are 11.  By themselves.

[Elizabeth Whitehouse 18]

Well good for them. That is certainly not the case everywhere. There are two public pools in Corning, where I used to take my kids.  Children are not allowed in without an adult. Same goes for the pool in West Elmira.