Brand Park Pool

[Jim 13]

Yesterday, I wrote to the current mayor and city council the following letter. I hope you will support my proposal to examine all possibilities of rehabilitating and using the building prior to making a decision to tear it down:

July 26, 2023

Open letter to Mayor Mandell and members of the Elmira city council

It has come to my attention that you are intending to proceed with the demolition of the Brand Park pool. I object to this unwise decision and ask that no action be taken until after the election.

First, the pool is of historic importance to the City. It is one of very few swimming pools like it left in the U.S., and it is a monument of great meaning to the many Elmirans who used to swim there. Second, you have yet to justify this demolition to the people. And have you investigated the cost of restoration? Have you asked for and received bids to restore or rehabilitate the facility? Have you looked into grants for historic preservation or considered the possibility of a capital fund-raising appeal to the citizens of Elmira? Have you asked Elmirans what they think of this ill-advised proposal?

Tearing this building down is tearing apart the fabric of what gives meaning to Elmira and to our communities. It is the last resort that should be taken. We must first consider restoring it as a swimming pool, and if that turns out to be impossible, we should next attempt to retrofit the building, retain its historic value, and use, appreciate, and value it. Retaining this unique and valuable facility will give many returns to our city in the future, while tearing it down will erase any future tourist and recreational opportunities or any historic interest it might offer.

As a candidate for mayor of Elmira, I believe that all options should be thoroughly investigated before embarking on the proposed resolution, and that Elmirans should be able to voice their opinions on the issue; therefore, I ask that the proposed demolition be suspended until after the election in November.

[Chris 2,161]

That thing has been there, deteriorating for decades. Many have come and gone in their well intentioned efforts to somehow restore it. No one's been able to do so. 

It's too far gone, and too expensive to restore and maintain. If a private group wanted to raise private funds to do so, I'd be all for it. To spend taxpayer's money on it? Sorry, no. 

[JustAGuy 12]

I've never actually been over there but are you telling me the pool structure is still there? If the pool hasn't been operable for many years why is it's structure still up? Seems pointless?

[MsKreed 1,178]

A very good video about this pool from a local young man was posted on here  here earlier this month

 

 

Edited July 27, 2023 by MsKreed

[TTL News 308]

Moved to "Local News" section, as it isn't so much about politics as local issues. 

[Elizabeth Whitehouse 18]

Mayor Mandell has stated (in the debate) that he's going to tear it down. Jim Hassell has asked him to postpone that until after the election. Brand Park - once a jewel for Elmira - is not in great condition generally. The playground is rotting, many swings are missing, the splash pad doesn't work, the skate park is pitiful, and the landscaping could use work.  Even some of the random exercise equipment has been removed.  Where once it was a vibrant community center, much used and much loved, it is now largely neglected, except for the Riverside playing fields and the pavilion. What a waste!

"We're going to tear it down". What does that say about the mindset of our "leaders". I could live with something like "The pool is beyond repair (explaining why), so we have made the painful decision that it needs to be dismantled. In it's place, we plan to ........."  But they don't have any plans. Instead of trying to enhance the park and provide greater amenities for the people, they are taking them away.  At the very least, this large space could be planted in such a way that it is environmentally-friendly, and provides interest and learning opportunities. A rain garden. A pollinator garden. A community garden.

I no longer live in Elmira, but I will willingly take on the project.

[Chris 2,161]

I believe Mandell has said that in its place they intend to build a new splash pad, which I think is a complete waste of money as well. 

[KarenK 383]

37 minutes ago, Elizabeth Whitehouse said:

Mayor Mandell has stated (in the debate) that he's going to tear it down. Jim Hassell has asked him to postpone that until after the election. Brand Park - once a jewel for Elmira - is not in great condition generally. The playground is rotting, many swings are missing, the splash pad doesn't work, the skate park is pitiful, and the landscaping could use work.  Even some of the random exercise equipment has been removed.  Where once it was a vibrant community center, much used and much loved, it is now largely neglected, except for the Riverside playing fields and the pavilion. What a waste!

"We're going to tear it down". What does that say about the mindset of our "leaders". I could live with something like "The pool is beyond repair (explaining why), so we have made the painful decision that it needs to be dismantled. In it's place, we plan to ........."  But they don't have any plans. Instead of trying to enhance the park and provide greater amenities for the people, they are taking them away.  At the very least, this large space could be planted in such a way that it is environmentally-friendly, and provides interest and learning opportunities. A rain garden. A pollinator garden. A community garden.

I no longer live in Elmira, but I will willingly take on the project.

They have said over and over that the pool is beyond repair and needs to be dismantled.  For YEARS.  I would google all the articles, but you can do it yourself with some research. 

I am in fact so sick of hearing them talk about it, I wish they would just do it and be done with it.  It's been on hold since forever because of money.  Can't afford to fix it, can't afford to take it down.

[Elizabeth Whitehouse 18]

It's not a question of money; it's a question of priorities. I know all about the history of the pool. I also know several people who grew up swimming in that pool. That amenity has now gone because no one wanted to take on the task of restoring it. Sure, the city may not have had the money. But have you never heard of things like GoFundMe, fund drives, grants? The money could easily be raised to restore or repurpose the pool.

[Chris 2,161]

People and groups to save the pool have come and gone over the past twenty or so years. It's not like nobody tried, it's that it's too far beyond repair. 

[Elizabeth Whitehouse 18]

Possibly. But if there had been some effort to save it 20 years ago, there would now be a flourishing amenity in Brand Park.  And a flourishing Brand Park.

[MsKreed 1,178]

As I noted already.....

On 7/27/2023 at 4:51 PM, MsKreed said:

A very good video about this pool from a local young man was posted on here  here earlier this month

If anyone advocating here to "save" the Pool has bothered to watch it, it seems like they're choosing to avoid the images of disrepair and don't want to talk about the real condition of the structure or the decades of effort and struggles outlined in the video, that led up to this point.

The downtown parking garage is "not in great condition generally"....Brand Park Memorial Pool is what she said:

1 hour ago, KarenK said:

They have said over and over that the pool is beyond repair and needs to be dismantled.  For YEARS. 

There are several mature trees growing through the crumbled concrete floor of the pool....that is the building's foundation:

No sane person who has looked at its condition (even with an untrained eye) would suggest that it can be "rehabilitated".....as if a couple of tons of sakrete, epoxy sealant and a coat of paint over the graffitti will do the trick. 

so yes....there is a question of money. 

It's not even a case of simply calling it a restoration by rebuilding "from the ground up"....but literally from some point several feet below ground where the root systems reach. 

And then paying astronomical premiums for what insurance companies refer to as an "attractive nuisance"....not just a little residential sized attractive nuisance, but a large, publicly accessible one. 

Exponential increases in liability/insurance costs are a major factor in the trend of more and more municipalities across the country abandoning the once common practice of operating public pools. We live in a litigious society where a minor injuries can result in huge legal settlements - let alone drowning hazards. 

Edited August 19, 2023 by MsKreed

[Chris 2,161]

1 hour ago, Elizabeth Whitehouse said:

But if there had been some effort to save it 20 years ago, there would now be a flourishing amenity in Brand Park.  And a flourishing Brand Park.

I just explicitly told you above, there has been repeated efforts made over the years by various individuals and groups.

They found out the same thing I'm telling you: It's too far gone. 

 

[Elizabeth Whitehouse 18]

Did those individuals and groups do their own studies, or did they rely on a report from Fagan Engineering which put a price to fix it based on what their charge would be? There are other ways. For example, a team of masons/building trades students could spearhead the project with volunteers to scrape and paint and do grunt work under supervision.

Where there is a will, there is a way. Unfortunately, there is little "will" from the city.

[Chris 2,161]

I don’t understand why you can’t grasp that the pool is beyond repair. Like the Labrador Duck memorialized a stones throw away, it is done. Finished.

This isn’t a matter of raising a few grand on GoFundMe, go to Lowe’s and get the materials. There is no “scraping and painting” and all is good as new. The core structure is compromised. There are actual trees growing up through the center of it, FFS.

Even if they wanted to “save” the pool, it would be in name only. The only option would be to tear it down and a complete rebuild. Which would be a colossal waste of money for something that only gets used a couple months out of the year.

 

[MsKreed 1,178]

1 hour ago, Elizabeth Whitehouse said:

Did those individuals and groups do their own studies, or did they rely on a report from Fagan Engineering which put a price to fix it based on what their charge would be?

Have you looked into the condition of the facility, or are you just relying on what the sentiments of people who grew up swimming in that pool? 

I'll assume you didn't notice the link I provided twice in the topic to  very good video about this pool from a local young man was shared on this site. 

Pay attention ----> HERE's the link AGAIN.

That underlined text is called a "link" and if you click it, you can take 20 minutes of your time to see for yourself what people here are saying about the condition being far beyond something that can be rehabilitated perhaps understand why we are embarrassed for you when you suggest  "volunteers to scrape and paint" as a solution. 

And, in case a 20 minute video is way too effort for you exert to learn about an issue that you seem so fervidly passionate about....perhaps you missed my earlier drone photo that shows the full grown trees growing in the pool floor (foundation of the structure):

 

[Elizabeth Whitehouse 18]

I have clicked on the link (I do know how to) and I have seen this video. It is informative and enlightening. but I do not agree with his conclusion that the only solution is to tear it down.

[MsKreed 1,178]

Seriously??  

I don't have to be a botanist to know the root systems of those trees stretch underground to a comparable breadth as the canopies. The tree roots are a good 20-30% of the foundation. Removing them would require jack-hammering which would destroy the entire foundation that's holding up the structure.  

So, I think the numerous groups and organizations who have raised funds (and dedicated time to finding a way to save it) had good reason to conclude that the task of repairing is not feasible 

If that looks to you like something that can be repaired with some scraping and painting, then I truly am embarrassed for you. 

[Kevin 334]

Anyone that thinks the pool is salvageable at this point is holding onto sentiment of childhood. 

The pool mechanical room is probably filled with asbestos and you could probably tear it down and build it again cheaper than restoring what is there now. I saw there was a kid during summer cohesion. 

Say I had 5 million to have a new one rebuilt to the exact same look as the original, what's next?

I read an article not long ago that the W. Elmira and Harris Hill pools are having issues finding life guards because kids are not taking the life guard courses as much as they used to. 

Working splash pads are great because once they are installed they are mostly maintenance free and allows the neighborhood kids to cool off and not have to worry about finding life guards.

[MsKreed 1,178]

3 hours ago, Kevin said:

Say I had 5 million to have a new one rebuilt to the exact same look as the original, what's next?

I read an article not long ago that the W. Elmira and Harris Hill pools are having issues finding life guards because kids are not taking the life guard courses as much as they used to. 

You're spot on. While some are arguing that we need to find the funds and resources to rebuild, that pipe dream doesn't address the operation needs if it were rebuilt. 

And the struggle to recruit lifeguards is not an isolated problem or unique to those local pools ....it's a nationwide problem. 

It being reported in every national news outlet that: Lifeguard shortage may force half of public pools in U.S. to close or limit hours

Quote

 

This isn't the first year there has been more demand than supply for lifeguards, but across the country, states and municipalities are facing their worst shortages on record. In New York City, even a 9% pay increase and sign-on bonus hasn't convinced people to take the job, leaving the city with just a third of the lifeguards it needs. 

Across the country, about half of the nation's 309,000 public pools will be forced to close their doors or reduce hours, according to the American Lifeguard Association. 

 

 

[Adam 373]

On 8/19/2023 at 12:58 PM, Elizabeth Whitehouse said:

At the very least, this large space could be planted in such a way that it is environmentally-friendly, and provides interest and learning opportunities. A rain garden. A pollinator garden. A community garden.

very good ideas actually, though likely would not bring the City much in the way of it's favorite grant funding

[Hal 341]

I can see the park planted in such a way as to make it a relaxing and enjoyable spot  . Community gardens , pollinator gardens even better … IF there were some way to keep them inviting . As to the pool bring on the bulldozers, its had its days and now its past time to move it into just being a fond memory ! 

[Chris 2,161]

I do like the idea of some kind of community garden and/or pollinator gardens. Once upon a time that area was full of flowers and paths.

[Elizabeth Whitehouse 18]

Are lifeguards necessary?

[KarenK 383]

15 minutes ago, Elizabeth Whitehouse said:

Are lifeguards necessary?

Well from a liability insurance standpoint.  Yes.