Town Of Horseheads Sends "Cease And Desist" Letter To Local Venue

[Chris 2,161]

The Town of Horseheads has sent a "cease and desist" letter to The L.

Quote

 

According to the cease-and-desist letter, the church previously applied to also operate commercial businesses on the property. When the church applied for a Planned Unit Development (PUD) amendment, the Town said it approved only the use of professional offices, not “the myriad of uses requested in its application.”

These uses currently include a fitness center, a barbershop, a wedding venue, The L concert venue, and a café, the Town said. Since the Town granted Journey approval for professional offices, the Town said the church has not applied for any updated permits with the Town.

 

Source

[Hal 341]

Nope … not even thinking of commenting on this 🔥mess ! 

[Adam 373]

ive done some digging and it almost seems as though someone may be getting prophet/profit confused. the owner of the L has it registered through "the corporation" 12 canal street big flats ny, which apparently is a mens group home through IMATTER which the "church" says is one of its missions. so at minimum it is a non-profit classification seemingly seeking profit at worst the Journey Church is hiding alot of cash flow behind religious exemptions.

next issue is that they sell alcohol at the music shows....there does not seem to be ANY record of a Liquor license attached to many names attached to the church/non-profit.

the cafe that is located in the building does not appear in any Health Department inspections for the last 5 years so im wondering if its even on the radar. (correct name found, THAT has been inspected)

its nothing against the L, and the owner MAY very well be innocent of any intent but if its a church, then its church and church offices. if its a business, zone it and tax it accordingly, no other businesses would be tolerated doing such things

Edited March 18, 2023 by Adam
accuracy

[Adam 373]

and of course for offering a sane and factual response to the Admins rants against Laws and money grubbing by the Government, i get locked out of commenting on Elmira is Crazy

its really amazing how insecure people can be when confronted by truth that runs contrary to their opinions and outright rantings

[Hal 341]

True Adam and I understand the need to educate some people in the area of Zoning and Ethics but why aggravate yourself on “ Elmira is Crazy “?! There is a very good reason for that site being named as such . Let them work it out with the powers that be … You of all people know how this whole thing works by that I mean the whole “ Church vs Ethics “ thing that is so pervasive ,locally , these days .   

[MsKreed 1,178]

Every time I see someone share an event or post from "The L" and check out their FB page, it looks like Adam Bunce is running the place. He's an experienced businessman, and when I've seen comparisons to Tag's, it makes me happy to see capitalism working...it's good to see Tag's get honest competition (not our money propping up the Arena).  

I had no idea that they were supposedly operating as a church or non-profit. Affordable Line Dance classes sort of fall into what a Community Center may offer......But Wrestling, Quiet Riot, Comedy Club performances?

They seem popular to the point where they have full-house crowds to some events, but I wasn't aware of any ministry being carried out.  It seems like if those events were allegedly "fund raisers" for some cause or causes, they would be touting those causes. Their FB page identifies as a "Live Entertainment Venue", and neither FB nor their Official Website mentions any charitable works that the revenues are supporting. 

 

 

[Kevin 334]

Most everything that they host lists the I-matter foundation as a sponsor. So I wonder if that's part of the shell game. I went there for the micro wrestling event and it was fun. A sellout there isn't as big an achievement as it sounds. It looks like it only holds a few hundred people. 

[KarenK 383]

Just now, MsKreed said:

Every time I see someone share an event or post from "The L" and check out their FB page, it looks like Adam Bunce is running the place. He's an experienced businessman, and when I've seen comparisons to Tag's, it makes me happy to see capitalism working...it's good to see Tag's get honest competition (not our money propping up the Arena).  

I had no idea that they were supposedly operating as a church or non-profit. Affordable Line Dance classes sort of fall into what a Community Center may offer......But Wrestling, Quiet Riot, Comedy Club performances?

They seem popular to the point where they have full-house crowds to some events, but I wasn't aware of any ministry being carried out.  It seems like if those events were allegedly "fund raisers" for some cause or causes, they would be touting those causes. Their FB page identifies as a "Live Entertainment Venue", and neither FB nor their Official Website mentions any charitable works that the revenues are supporting. 

 

 

I have been to three events there and it is well run, well attended and a beautiful clean, nice venue. 

The noise complaints are nonsense.  You can't hear a thing outside.  Dave went out to smoke last year at a July show and was literally right outside the building and could not hear Double Barrel playing right inside.

The "trouble" has never happened ever.  They have a bouncer every 2 ft, literally and there has never been any kind of trouble.

The "neighbor" who complained is someone I believe I know personally and that's what he does wherever he goes. Even to a little private club.

They have been operating for 2 years with well attended, well advertised events and suddenly they have no permits?

To me this sounds like a pissin match.  Adam or Scott made someone mad or the other local larger venues are unhappy?  Who knows but I doubt this will go anywhere.

 

PS.  I will be attending a concert there on April 28th.  Can't wait!

[MsKreed 1,178]

16 minutes ago, KarenK said:

They have been operating for 2 years with well attended, well advertised events and suddenly they have no permits?

That seems suspicious for sure...

If they don't have proper permits for anything other than "office space", the Town should have raised the issue a long time ago.....and if they're serving food or alcohol, those licensing agencies should have spoken up as well. 

[Zapp Brannigan 137]

23 minutes ago, KarenK said:

I have been to three events there and it is well run, well attended and a beautiful clean, nice venue. 

The noise complaints are nonsense.  You can't hear a thing outside.  Dave went out to smoke last year at a July show and was literally right outside the building and could not hear Double Barrel playing right inside.

The "trouble" has never happened ever.  They have a bouncer every 2 ft, literally and there has never been any kind of trouble.

The "neighbor" who complained is someone I believe I know personally and that's what he does wherever he goes. Even to a little private club.

They have been operating for 2 years with well attended, well advertised events and suddenly they have no permits?

To me this sounds like a pissin match.  Adam or Scott made someone mad or the other local larger venues are unhappy?  Who knows but I doubt this will go anywhere.

 

PS.  I will be attending a concert there on April 28th.  Can't wait!

Exactly what I said. Who did they piss off Tags or The Arena. I've picked up my daughter from her Cheer Practice and the events are always well staffed and you can not hear what's going on inside. 

[KarenK 383]

17 minutes ago, MsKreed said:

That seems suspicious for sure...

If they don't have proper permits for anything other than "office space", the Town should have raised the issue a long time ago.....and if they're serving food or alcohol, those licensing agencies should have spoken up as well. 

The "cafe" is not operated by the L or it's corporation.  They have a partnership or somthing with an outside company whose name I forget that operates it.  So if you are digging dirt on the cafe, you need to find out the name of the operating company.

My guess is that the liquor is the same. They didn't have alcohol for a long time and then got permits and they do.  Now they may be operating that portion using a local establishment that does have a liquor license and permit for off site sales.  Any venue big or small can get a one day or two day permit to have liquor.  Your local fairs and events like that are serving alcohol do this.  

[KarenK 383]

14 minutes ago, Zapp Brannigan said:

Exactly what I said. Who did they piss off Tags or The Arena. I've picked up my daughter from her Cheer Practice and the events are always well staffed and you can not hear what's going on inside. 

Coincidentally Tags posted on FB on the parking issue a few days ago.  I follow that page pretty closely and have never seen Tags comment on anything.  They were supportive of course but I thought it odd that a mere day later, this other issue shows up on the news.  Someone is feeding the news stations this info too.  None of our local news agencies have any interest in trying to find news, but will jump on a piece of dirt fed to them.  The cease and desist order was issued early February.

[KarenK 383]

53 minutes ago, Kevin said:

Most everything that they host lists the I-matter foundation as a sponsor. So I wonder if that's part of the shell game. I went there for the micro wrestling event and it was fun. A sellout there isn't as big an achievement as it sounds. It looks like it only holds a few hundred people. 

It holds more than you think and they have two separate venues there and have run two separate events at the same time.  The main center is huge and has standing capacity of 600 -800.  The other event room called The Pit can hold 400+.  It's a lot bigger than it looks from the outside.

Edited March 18, 2023 by KarenK

[Adam 373]

1 hour ago, Hal said:

True Adam and I understand the need to educate some people in the area of Zoning and Ethics but why aggravate yourself on “ Elmira is Crazy “?! There is a very good reason for that site being named as such . Let them work it out with the powers that be … You of all people know how this whole thing works by that I mean the whole “ Church vs Ethics “ thing that is so pervasive ,locally , these days .   

there i expect it and wasnt surprised, if its who i think it is running it, 

[MsKreed 1,178]

 

 

16 minutes ago, KarenK said:

The "cafe" is not operated by the L or it's corporation.  They have a partnership or somthing with an outside company whose name I forget that operates it.  So if you are digging dirt on the cafe, you need to find out the name of the operating company.

I sort of figured something like that. Not sure how they work, but "caterers" are allowed to serve at locations that aren't licensed as food service establishments.

If they weren't eligible to serve food/alcohol, then you'd expect those respective agencies wouldn't have issued permits.....and the Town should have objected sooner (aside from the no-zoned use as a venue.  

17 minutes ago, KarenK said:

Coincidentally Tags posted on FB on the parking issue a few days ago.  I follow that page pretty closely and have never seen Tags comment on anything.  They were supportive of course but I thought it odd that a mere day later, this other issue shows up on the news.

I found it odd that Tag would say anything supportive of anyone.....he's a generally antagonistic toward everyone - even his own customers. LOL

[Adam 373]

1 hour ago, KarenK said:

They have been operating for 2 years with well attended, well advertised events and suddenly they have no permits?

To me this sounds like a pissin match.  Adam or Scott made someone mad or the other local larger venues are unhappy?  Who knows but I doubt this will go anywhere.

 

permits are not the issue, its violation of their original zoning. it is a residential area, they were approved to operate as a church with professional offices. no where at any time were they approved for cafe, music venue, wedding venue, barber shop or fitness center. and serving alcohol on the property. when reading the minutes from October it seems the complaints generated knowledge regarding the un zoned activities. there does appear to be some sketchy intent going on. its definitely tied in with the church or at minimum a non profit. so those businesses are operating at unfair tax status, the finances are not reported same as for profit operators, and the "pastor" has a history of money games already.

34 minutes ago, KarenK said:

The "cafe" is not operated by the L or it's corporation.  They have a partnership or somthing with an outside company whose name I forget that operates it.  So if you are digging dirt on the cafe, you need to find out the name of the operating company.

according to the reports from the health Dpt. the food is prepared in the church kitchen and then served in the cafe located in the L

 

36 minutes ago, KarenK said:

My guess is that the liquor is the same. They didn't have alcohol for a long time and then got permits and they do. 

when checking NYS liquor Board site, there are no records of current, pending or canceled licenses for that address. in videos posted, when introducing the Bar, they folks serving are associated with th e L

on one hand its good these issues are coming to light, its great to have a successful business operating anywhere in this County. but that success needs to be on par with what any other for profit entity has to go through. running business under non-profit status OR under the guise of church activities is honestly a scumbag move and should not be tolerated no matter how nice a person they be. I do question the competency of the "news" establishment that this order was posted in early February, and its now just up on their radar

[MsKreed 1,178]

So, I looked up the October Minutes of the Town Board that Adam mentioned. 

The first 5 of 8 pages were dedicated to the issue. (Read HERE)

It does seem like neighbors have been complaining for quite some time, and the Town Attorney was already looking into whether the nature and frequency of events fall under Church Activity.

All of the timing seems weird.....Enough District 8 constituents had complained that Peggy Woodard attended that meeting to express concern six months ago, but we're hearing about it now?

Obviously, someone recently shared the Cease and Desist Letter with the media this week, after it was issued six weeks ago.

[MsKreed 1,178]

17 hours ago, Adam said:

the cafe that is located in the building does not appear in any Health Department inspections for the last 5 years so im wondering if its even on the radar.

This is not accurate. 

2022 Health Inspections  for the Chemung County Health Department list The Journey Center (ID: 1081146) and Papa Jax Cafe (ID: 1081147) as having Pre-op Inspections in March 2022 and follow up inspections in August. 

Which confuses me as to how CCHD can have them listed as two Food Service Establishments without some authorization from the Town saying it has allowed it to exist?  

Edited March 18, 2023 by MsKreed

[Kevin 334]

4 hours ago, KarenK said:

It holds more than you think and they have two separate venues there and have run two separate events at the same time.  The main center is huge and has standing capacity of 600 -800.  The other event room called The Pit can hold 400+.  It's a lot bigger than it looks from the outside.

I must have been in the Pit for the micro wrestling because it wasn't very big. Also who wants to go to a concert and stand the entire time. That sounds horrible.

[KarenK 383]

21 minutes ago, Kevin said:

I must have been in the Pit for the micro wrestling because it wasn't very big. Also who wants to go to a concert and stand the entire time. That sounds horrible.

LOL, that's what these young kids do at those metal concerts. No sitting at all.  I'm too damn old for that.

[KarenK 383]

1 hour ago, MsKreed said:

This is not accurate. 

2022 Health Inspections  for the Chemung County Health Department list The Journey Center (ID: 1081146) and Papa Jax Cafe (ID: 1081147) as having Pre-op Inspections in March 2022 and follow up inspections in August. 

Which confuses me as to how CCHD can have them listed as two Food Service Establishments without some authorization from the Town saying it has allowed it to exist?  

I agree.  Having dealt with the DOH before I am familiar with their list of 'wants' when they do inspections and the operating permits are one of them.

[MsKreed 1,178]

It just seems like the Town Board didn’t specifically prohibit the “the myriad of uses” when the venue started operations, and for a year or more, accepted the opinion from Journey's attorney that IMatter functions fall under "church activity" that's acceptable under zoning (in the same manner that other churches hold festivals, etc).  Then after receiving noise complaints, reconsidered whether the profusion & frequency of "church activities" changes the definition of usage.....and may be trying to grasp at some legal language that could be used to backtrack a bit and rescind permissions.

Honestly, it stretches credibility for them to suggest they weren’t aware of the various events until residents showed up at the October meeting with complaints.  They’d been operating as a concert venue for over a year. How would it be possible for no Board members to have watched the news, driven by a sign, or have any awareness of some of the largest events that were taking place in the Town they were elected to oversee??

[Adam 373]

3 hours ago, MsKreed said:

This is not accurate. 

yes, i forgot to correct that statement when i finlly did find the name and confirmed it, when i answered the post from Karen

[Adam 373]

1 hour ago, MsKreed said:

It just seems like the Town Board didn’t specifically prohibit the “the myriad of uses” when the venue started operations,

mainly because( i am doing some assuming here) that residentially zoned areas automatically prohibit commercial enterprises, as concert venues, fitness centers, barber shops etc would be.

if im reading the minutes correctly, the Board went out on a limb to allow the private offices, given the imatter component to allow for doctors, counselors, tutors as those activities generally do not disrupt a residential setting.

[Adam 373]

"Just to put everyone at ease….ALL scheduled shows are still a go including Blue October next Wednesday..."

now see post like this make me wonder if the C&D order has been lifted in the month since it was actually placed?

if not, its one of two things: breaking the law further, daring the town to take them to court which can either endanger the venue's future completely or set up a David v Goliath mentality which draws more support(money).

Would not put it past the "Church" or someone affiliated to have been the source of potential tip off to the town, which again translates into "screw the gubmint" mentality thereby increasing the funds flowing into the church pockets.

If the C&D has been lifted, why not just tell folks that are "trashing" the place and end it? of course no publicity is bad publicity

And then i see quotes like below and "the news only told half the story" well tell the whole story then and get it over with, but again i think the Pastor may be angling for a fight and/or increase of funds from parishioners...something just plainly stinks

"We were issued a cease and desist order for anything not church related. This issue with this is that technically a town can’t dictate what is and isn’t “church”. Our attorneys have been working with town officials since this order was issued. This is a flat out attempt to take down The L."

Edited March 19, 2023 by Adam