Let's Talk About Race In The Twin Tiers

[Pvt Snowball 21]

15 hours ago, Chris said:

Isn’t that we’ve been doing here?

This is your topic man, have at it! 🙂

I met in public space I'm working on a project with my church about it I'm the only black member ever of my church so I've put a lot of thought into it "you have to get uncomfortable to get comfortable"

Edited June 6 by Pvt Snowball

[Hal 456]

28 minutes ago, Pvt Snowball said:

Poor quality education system especially in the black community alot of those schools are underfunded, overcrowded.mass mass incarcerations and police brutalities, poor public housing do you think people especially in the black communities like living like that? Probably not and as far as the political system we only make up about 13% of congress talk about equal representation right.

I see your point but understand my point of view . If a person , be they a person of color or white , is not satisfied with their situation in society or their lives they have every opportunity to better themselves. And please also understand that I speak from the point of view as a white male who  grew up piss poor , living in the country in a run down rental house that had no inside plumbing , used an outhouse until we renovated the house , used a creek to bathe , ate what you hunted or gardened and preserved . I was not given the opportunity to go to college either ! But when the government was finished with me I used every opportunity to raise my station in life . All anyone needs do is to want to better themselves, against whatever odds they face , including getting involved , running for political office , Representing the underserved of your community . You choose what hill to fight and die on , that is your Right , the Right of Choice . As to mass incarceration I cannot speak to that point as I have never done anything to warrant it but then again that goes back to that Freedom of Choice . That is why we have Laws , either your Choose to abide by them or don’t. 
Now with all that said maybe if you can see my point of view we may be able to have a discussion on the topic . But in all honesty I just don’t believe we can . 

[Chris 2,774]

2 hours ago, Pvt Snowball said:

Poor quality education system especially in the black community alot of those schools are underfunded, overcrowded.mass mass incarcerations and police brutalities, poor public housing do you think people especially in the black communities like living like that?

I don't think we can apply any of those to our area and say it affects one group disproportionately over another. 

[Pvt Snowball 21]

On 6/6/2024 at 10:32 AM, Hal said:

I see your point but understand my point of view . If a person , be they a person of color or white , is not satisfied with their situation in society or their lives they have every opportunity to better themselves. And please also understand that I speak from the point of view as a white male who  grew up piss poor , living in the country in a run down rental house that had no inside plumbing , used an outhouse until we renovated the house , used a creek to bathe , ate what you hunted or gardened and preserved . I was not given the opportunity to go to college either ! But when the government was finished with me I used every opportunity to raise my station in life . All anyone needs do is to want to better themselves, against whatever odds they face , including getting involved , running for political office , Representing the underserved of your community . You choose what hill to fight and die on , that is your Right , the Right of Choice . As to mass incarceration I cannot speak to that point as I have never done anything to warrant it but then again that goes back to that Freedom of Choice . That is why we have Laws , either your Choose to abide by them or don’t. 
Now with all that said maybe if you can see my point of view we may be able to have a discussion on the topic . But in all honesty I just don’t believe we can . 

We can have a conversation if you're willing to listen.

[Pvt Snowball 21]

On 6/6/2024 at 11:32 AM, Chris said:

I don't think we can apply any of those to our area and say it affects one group disproportionately over another. 

Oh we can definitely apply some of those especially the policing but she/he ask for examples because you don't see it happening in front of you doesn't mean it isn't happening here 

[Pvt Snowball 21]

2 minutes ago, Pvt Snowball said:

We can have a conversation if you're willing to listen.

Ask yourself these question would you trade skin color with me or another person who isn't white? and do you think even in this town you be treated differently?

[Chris 2,774]

3 hours ago, Pvt Snowball said:

Ask yourself these question would you trade skin color with me or another person who isn't white? 

Allow me to flip this on you: Would you trade skin color with me or someone who is white?

[Ann 358]

3 hours ago, Pvt Snowball said:

Ask yourself these question would you trade skin color with me or another person who isn't white? and do you think even in this town you be treated differently?

No, I wouldn’t.  I am who God intended me to be.  
I applied for a job, was hired for that position, then I was told I couldn’t have that job because I was the wrong color.  I was a white woman and the organization had to hire a black woman.  I can truthfully say I was disappointed but I didn’t get angry.  I had already learned that life isn’t always fair no matter who you are.  Another time, the President of the company I was with at that time once told me he didn’t want to hire me because I was fat and fat people were lazy but the Vice President saw something in me.  People of color aren’t the only ones to experience discrimination because there will always be someone who has biases no matter who you are.  What matters is how you handle those situations and yourself.  You can’t let someone else’s ignorance be the deciding factor in how you live your life, you keep trying.
 

[Hal 456]

4 hours ago, Pvt Snowball said:

We can have a conversation if you're willing to listen.

And can we have a conversation without it turning to ,so called,  white privilege or me being called a racist if you’re not willing to listen ? 
I will tell you up front though , I have lived around Elmira all my life ,  went to the Elmira schools , raised a family in what some would call the “projects “ . In my 70 years I have seen it all , heard it all and felt it all (yes physically) . So if you are here to speak of the downtrodden as being only or mainly people of color , no I don’t think a conversation can be had as there a whole lot of the white community in the same situation. 

Edited June 10 by Hal

[KarenK 453]

12 minutes ago, Ann said:

No, I wouldn’t.  I am who God intended me to be.  
I applied for a job, was hired for that position, then I was told I couldn’t have that job because I was the wrong color.  I was a white woman and the organization had to hire a black woman.  I can truthfully say I was disappointed but I didn’t get angry.  I had already learned that life isn’t always fair no matter who you are.  Another time, the President of the company I was with at that time once told me he didn’t want to hire me because I was fat and fat people were lazy but the Vice President saw something in me.  People of color aren’t the only ones to experience discrimination because there will always be someone who has biases no matter who you are.  What matters is how you handle those situations and yourself.  You can’t let someone else’s ignorance be the deciding factor in how you live your life, you keep trying.
 

Well said Ann!!

 

[Adam 458]

3 hours ago, Pvt Snowball said:

Ask yourself these question would you trade skin color with me or another person who isn't white? and do you think even in this town you be treated differently?

short answer: yes and though you may not like the answer, the reason is this; there are behaviors amongst a percentage of the black community that, if displayed by others, would result in different reactions from the majority. there are loans, grants, programs, organizations open to the black community that are not open to others.. It might be nice for once to be automatically considered an aggrieved or oppressed person instead of the evil oppressor.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      But since melanin does not cross the blood-brain barrier, skin tone does not affect the choices some people make. Right/Wrong does not change between Black/White, nor does the ability to understand you cannot change how people treat you, only what you do in reaction to it as well as how you use it. Stop looking outside your community for what is rotten and look within it for what festers;  Perhaps, as a demographic, stop voting for party and concentrate more upon the people that will help elevate expectations because no one will advocate for YOU better than YOU.

[Pvt Snowball 21]

Are you a black man if not then you will never know until you experience racism you will never know . And that a very white wash answer that like saying there is no such thing as systematic racism or you don't see color.but your entitled to your opinion if the system doesn't change then the people can't 

Edited June 10 by Pvt Snowball

[command_prompt 242]

I strongly recommend that you read this book. Its author is black. https://www.amazon.com/Woke-Racism-Religion-Betrayed-America/dp/0593423062?tag=knoa-20

[Chris 2,774]

6 hours ago, Pvt Snowball said:

Are you a black man if not then you will never know until you experience racism you will never know

The problem with this statement is the belief that because one is white, they are immune to the effects of racism. A quick Google search gives the following definition:
 

Racism-Noun - prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

To answer your question, yes, I have experienced racism for simply holding a young black man to the same standards as everyone else in the group. He didn’t like the rules, didn’t feel he had to follow them and immediately accused me of treating him differently based on his skin color.

Not “whoops I’m sorry,” not “oh I should follow the rules like everyone else,” even as I tried to explain the reasoning for them. Nope, “I think you’re racist.” And then proceeded to do something that could have been both dangerous and disastrous for me and/or my family here in the community and I had to take actions to protect them as well as myself.

The assumption was because I was white, I must be guilty of being a bigot. All because some young man didn’t feel like he should have to follow the rules like everyone else.

Now, I understand your experiences with racism may be different than mine or other white folks here. But that doesn’t mean we can’t experience it in some way. Therefore it’s not unique to one ethnic group or another. 

 

[Ann 358]

8 hours ago, Pvt Snowball said:

Are you a black man if not then you will never know until you experience racism you will never know . And that a very white wash answer that like saying there is no such thing as systematic racism or you don't see color.but your entitled to your opinion if the system doesn't change then the people can't 

Perhaps there might be better understanding of what you’re talking about if you could give examples of racism that you have personally experienced living in the Twin Tiers.  

[Pvt Snowball 21]

56 minutes ago, Ann said:

Perhaps there might be better understanding of what you’re talking about if you could give examples of racism that you have personally experienced living in the Twin Tiers.  

I've been followed by police officers on my way to work and home in the past the was my very first experience also I deal customers on a regular basis and the things I've heard and is said to me is crazy and these are suppose to br my neighbor it hard to trust that notion to believe every white person isn't a racist but I don't see other wise and I have white friends I respect but ones gotta ask do you see me? 

[Pvt Snowball 21]

2 hours ago, Chris said:

The problem with this statement is the belief that because one is white, they are immune to the effects of racism. A quick Google search gives the following definition:
 

Racism-Noun - prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

To answer your question, yes, I have experienced racism for simply holding a young black man to the same standards as everyone else in the group. He didn’t like the rules, didn’t feel he had to follow them and immediately accused me of treating him differently based on his skin color.

Not “whoops I’m sorry,” not “oh I should follow the rules like everyone else,” even as I tried to explain the reasoning for them. Nope, “I think you’re racist.” And then proceeded to do something that could have been both dangerous and disastrous for me and/or my family here in the community and I had to take actions to protect them as well as myself.

The assumption was because I was white, I must be guilty of being a bigot. All because some young man didn’t feel like he should have to follow the rules like everyone else.

Now, I understand your experiences with racism may be different than mine or other white folks here. But that doesn’t mean we can’t experience it in some way. Therefore it’s not unique to one ethnic group or another. 

 

Ask yourselves a question when was the last time white people were oppressed?

[Pvt Snowball 21]

9 hours ago, command_prompt said:

I strongly recommend that you read this book. Its author is black. https://www.amazon.com/Woke-Racism-Religion-Betrayed-America/dp/0593423062?tag=knoa-20

I check it out 

[Pvt Snowball 21]

I challenge you to have these conversations with your black friends and if you don't have any get some and get their point of view.

[Chris 2,774]

13 minutes ago, Pvt Snowball said:

Ask yourselves a question when was the last time white people were oppressed?

That question completely deflects from the argument I responded to. You made the statement that unless one is black, they cannot experience racism.

That statement is patently false, as my example shows. 

[MsKreed 1,435]

This topic began with thoughtful, reflective questions of how to get more black people involved in their community:

On 5/28/2024 at 8:49 AM, Pvt Snowball said:

Upstate NY is a beautiful place alot of open land good fishing and good quality of breathable air, let pull back some layers. Have you ever noticed there are no black communities anymore? Sure there are black people but no communities especially locally. How do we get more black people involved in their community?

It's unfortunate that, in two weeks’ time, it’s transformed into declarations that white privilege is so entrenched in the Twin Tiers (and presumably the entire country according to Rev Jim Wallis)....that black people are helpless in any attempt to elevate themselves.

I’m hearing that you believe that white privilege is an immutable condition.  That it’s the cause of all problems for all black people?  And for someone not to judge others based on race, to not see color as a factor... is a “white trash answer”?

It makes me curious why you’d try to brainstorm ideas to improve black communities (or even join an all-white church) looking for solutions, if the problem is insurmountably baked into everyone’s skin color (which none of us have the power to change).

Let’s just rewind the whole conversation.....

On 5/28/2024 at 9:51 AM, Pvt Snowball said:

So I think recreating these communities and bring it back black owned businesses can really help the community become better and get more active engagement. We as a collective society we should to start bringing back sunshine to the people that are forgotten.

Unless the systemic racism you assert is the root cause of black struggles is somehow escalating over time (rather than being alleviated by the 14th Amendment, the Civil Rights Act, Affirmative Action etc), it doesn’t explain your observation how/why the sense of “community” among blacks has declined.  

If we want to revisit that discussion of comparing and contrasting various “communities” (past and present --because as I said before, white "communities" have suffered significant decline over the years as well) to identify helpful ideas, then I’ll be happy to weigh in.

I really would like to talk about ways to revive lost sense of "community.....but I don't see how a white woman like me in the rural outskirts of the county simply "accepting" the idea that whites are bad will make much progress in getting black people in Elmira more engaged in their communities. 

Edited June 10 by MsKreed

[Chris 2,774]

1 hour ago, Pvt Snowball said:

...it hard to trust that notion to believe every white person isn't a racist but I don't see other wise

While I know what you mean, take this above statement out of context ( like I did here ) and tell me, honestly, do you see how if I were to make that exact same statement about black people not being _____ "but I don't see otherwise", it would be a HUGE freaking problem for a LOT of people?

 

1 hour ago, Pvt Snowball said:

I challenge you to have these conversations with your black friends and if you don't have any get some and get their point of view.

I don't know what could be more... patronizing might be the word I'm looking for here: 

• The assumption we haven't had these conversations with friends, family, co-workers, etc. who happen to be black* or;
• The idea of seeking out anyone for friendship based on skin color, sex, creed, etc. 

I have had these very conversations with people, Pvt. Snowball, and I think you would be surprised that they wouldn't agree with all of the points you are making here. 

* I don't have "black friends" or "black family" any more than I have "Jewish friends" or "gay friends." I have friends who happen to be black or gay.  I have family who happen to be black and/or gay. But that's not how I would ever identify them. They are friends or family who happen to be _____, and it adds or detracts absolutely nothing from my view of them as people. So I wouldn't identify them as such. 

I don't know if you are new to, and if so,how long you've lived in this area but a bit of advicefrom a lifetime resident: Don't assume things about your white neighbor just the same as you wouldn't want them making assumptions about you based on your skin color. While there's a lot of Deep South redneck wanna-bes around here, there's a lot more to people around here than meets the eye sometimes. 

[Chris 2,774]

1 hour ago, MsKreed said:

This topic began with thoughtful, reflective questions of how to get more black people involved in their community:

It's unfortunate that, in two weeks’ time, it’s transformed into declarations that white privilege is so entrenched in the Twin Tiers (and presumably the entire country according to Rev Jim Wallis)....that black people are helpless in any attempt to elevate themselves.

This is an excellent point and I do feel like this topic has gotten really deep into the weeds, at least as it pertains to the Twin Tiers. Myself and my own replies included. 

Let's try to steer this back to the topic of issues here in the area as far as black communities, black owned businesses, or how issues affect black residents here that's somehow unique to the region. Otherwise we're just kinda spinning our wheels somewhat. 

 

[command_prompt 242]

I don't think we have a list of black-owned businesses. I know about two, both wonderful restaurants (we've been big supporters of WMC when they opened in 2022, going there at least once a week; we still do). MarShell's is another terrific spot. Green Pastures has closed decades ago. It's possible that there are black owners of other local venues, we just don't know about them. I don't think that local Chamber of Commerce has such listing, and if they do, if it's available to the general public. 

[Hal 456]

You all will need to excuse me from this thread as I have heard all this before, it leads nowhere but to a monologue of white guilt . Peace out , or at least until I see some forward movement .