Vaccine Mandates For Health Workers & The Possible Fallout

[TTL News 307]

Earlier this week Governor Andrew M. Cuomo announced that patient-facing healthcare workers at state-run hospitals will be required to get vaccinated for COVID-19 by Labor Day. There will not be an option to be tested in lieu of vaccination for these patient-facing healthcare workers. The Governor also announced that all New York State employees—about 130,000 people—will be required to get vaccinated for COVID-19 by Labor Day. State employees who do not get vaccinated will be required to be tested for COVID-19 on a weekly basis. New York State is working with state unions to implement the requirement quickly and fairly.

"New Yorkers have displayed tremendous dedication and resilience to defeat the COVID-19 pandemic across the state, but vaccination rates aren't keeping pace with the Delta variant and we need to act now," Governor Cuomo said. "That's why we're requiring everyone who works in a state-run hospital and interacts with patients to get vaccinated. New York is taking its vaccination effort a step further and requiring all state employees to get the shot or be tested weekly, and we look forward to working with our sisters and brothers in the labor movement to implement that quickly and effectively by Labor Day. Our healthcare heroes have led the way all through this terrible crisis, so let's get vaccinated, save lives and beat this beast for once and for all."

The Governor also called on the FDA to expedite final approval of the vaccine and end emergency use authorization restrictions. Governor Cuomo also urged local governments to require all employees to be vaccinated or submit to testing by Labor Day. If the numbers continue to increase, school districts in affected areas should also strongly consider taking further action.

[MsKreed 1,173]

1 hour ago, TwinTiersLiving said:

New York State is working with state unions to implement the requirement quickly and fairly.

Yeah...at least one union (the one that represents nurses who would be subject to the full mandate -- without any testing or masking options) was not consulted and just heard about this on Wednesday during his press conference.

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by MsKreed

[KarenK 382]

Let the lawsuits begin.  

[Chris 2,158]

1 hour ago, KarenK said:

Let the lawsuits begin.  

Yeah, no doubt a union or two will fight it. 

[Adam 373]

honestly i do not agree with forcing the vaccinations, particularly since they have yet to get full fda approval. the option should be either vax, mask or unemployment

 

[MsKreed 1,173]

This It's been a month since he made this announcement in a press conference, yet I can't still find any official written documentation that explains the details (of this or his more recent  "all healthcare" mandate).  It seems weird that there's been no mention of how medical exemptions would be addressed.

I'm not aware of anything that's been shared with state employees who are subject to the mandate......wondering if any private sector healthcare workers have received official guidance from the governor's office or DOH? 

Edited August 25, 2021 by MsKreed

[Chris 2,158]

It’s funny that this comes up now, but with small the talk of mandated vaccines for health care workers in the news the past week, I can’t help but wonder: Did they object to having a TB test injected into them every six months? Did they object to having to have a flu shot ( in places where they do )? Hep B vaccine?

 

[MsKreed 1,173]

Shouldn't objections be distinguished from medical contraindications?

 

 

As a side note, although TB intradermal is only going to produce a local reaction, rather than systemic (like the intradermal PEG test I just took)....I do know one corrections employee that did get a local reaction to "something" in the TB test that was not TB and had it documented what component she was allergic to so she could have an exemption from the yearly test. 

[Chris 2,158]

4 minutes ago, MsKreed said:

Shouldn't objections be distinguished from medical contraindications?

If you're referring to someone allergic to something in the vaccine or some other physical reason one can't get a vaccine, of course. 

And my TB reference was weak, I know. But at least in my mind if you're going to object to stuff being injected into your body, then commit 😀 

[MsKreed 1,173]

Just now, Chris said:

If you're referring to someone allergic to something in the vaccine or some other physical reason one can't get a vaccine, of course. 

😀 

And that was the point of my revisiting this topic.....his order (which I can't find an official record of):

1 hour ago, MsKreed said:

It seems weird that there's been no mention of how medical exemptions would be addressed.

Masking was excluded as an alternative, and weekly testing (which was specifically disallowed for healthcare workers), does nothing to protect (medically exempt) unvaccinated staff from being exposed to (mild) cases among vaccinated people.

[MsKreed 1,173]

The Chemung County Exec posted on his FB page that he echoes the concerns of these officials from 10 upstate counties:

Quote

At issue for the counties — Orleans, Genesee, Wyoming, Livingston, Steuben, Wayne, Ontario, Seneca, Yates and Schuyler — is the shrinking number of health care workers and resignations that are due to take effect on Sept. 26, a day before the vaccination requirement is in effect.

"As I am sure you are both aware, all levels of health care are already experiencing significant staffing shortages cause by a myriad of factors," the letter from the counties to Hochul and Zucker stated. "The potential mass exodus of health care staff in late September, coming several weeks after children return to school, coupled with the continued increase in COVID-19 across the state caused by the proliferation of the delta variant is a recipe for crisis throughout the entire health care system."

Considering, at less than 3 weeks away, the state's current 80% vaccination rate among hospital staff and 76% among nursing facility staff (with some counties significantly lower).......it is baffling to me that so many keyboard warriors replying to his post seem to think it will be OK to lose up to 20-30% of the healthcare workforce rather than consider an alternative to this mandate.

Edited September 9, 2021 by MsKreed

[KarenK 382]

1 hour ago, MsKreed said:

The Chemung County Exec posted on his FB page that he echoes the concerns of these officials from 10 upstate counties:

Considering, at less than 3 weeks away, the state's current 80% vaccination rate among hospital staff and 76% among nursing facility staff (with some counties significantly lower).......it is baffling to me that so many keyboard warriors replying to his post seem to think it will be OK to lose up to 20-30% of the healthcare workforce rather than consider an alternative to this mandate.

They have no concept of the numbers that involves apparently.  Until they can't get their appointment, or get turned away at the ER or can't have that surgery they need.  It will take that for it sink in.  It seems our new Gov isn't grasping it either.

[MsKreed 1,173]

1 hour ago, KarenK said:

They have no concept of the numbers that involves apparently.  Until they can't get their appointment, or get turned away at the ER or can't have that surgery they need.  It will take that for it sink in.  It seems our new Gov isn't grasping it either.

I’m fighting the urge to weigh in on the fact that people are conflating various premises.

The concern that Moss’s post (and officials of other counties) are expressing isn’t whether or not vaccines are a good idea, but rather the question of how to deal with the “reality” that as many as 20-30% of the (already declining) healthcare workforce could very likely leave service rather than comply.....which will have a drastic impact.

 

It’s also disappointing that the new governor hasn’t addressed the gaping aperture in her predecessor’s EO that omits any contingencies for medical exemptions and/or natural immunities from previous infections. (To be fair to Hochul, neither of those points were considered in the new mandates that POTUS outlined either).

[TTL News 307]

As reported by NBC news, a New York hospital has announced they will put a "pause" on delivering babies in their facility due to a large number of staff resigning rather than get vaccinated for COVID. Meanwhile, a group of seventeen healthcare workers plan to challenge the mandate on grounds of religious exemption. 

In 2009, an attempt to make the H1N1 vaccine mandatory for health care workers was halted on the grounds there wasn't enough vaccine, ( the legal challenge by a group of nurses doesn't appear to have been resolved after. ) 

This opens up a lot of questions. What are your thoughts on not only vaccinations being mandated by the state, but also the potential for a mass resignation by health care workers across the country? Does this mandate differ from mandatory TB testing for example? Do healthcare workers who resign guilty of abandoning their patients and their needs?

What do you think?

[Ann 263]

Health care providers worked through the worse times of Covid in 2020 without vaccines.  They are trained to work with contagious diseases.   I do not believe they should be mandated to get the vaccine, but should be offered the testing option.  There will definitely be a severe shortage of health care providers that will potentially cause more serious problems for patient care than Covid.  Just my humble opinion.

[MsKreed 1,173]

1 hour ago, TwinTiersLiving said:

Does this mandate differ from mandatory TB testing for example?

Considering that healthcare workers in NYS are explicitly denied any option for Covid (or covid antibody) testing...... this mandate most certainly differs from the quoted example. 

It even differs from existing vaccine mandates that have never required someone with a medical contraindication or existing immunity to be vaccinated anyway.

The arbitrary premise that vaccination is the only option is decidedly unscientific. 

Removing religious exemptions was already permitted a few years ago RE school requirements for measles vaccines. However, this one is the first I've ever heard that excludes medical exemptions and proof of immunity (natural or vaccine derived).  

[KarenK 382]

I am not a fan of the mandate at all.   Peoples reasoning to get it or not is really all over the place and sometimes bordering on alarming but still it should remain their choice.

[KarenK 382]

I also think that if these healthcare workers statewide that are threatening to quit actually do, we are screwed.

 

[Chris 2,158]

18 minutes ago, MsKreed said:

Considering that healthcare workers in NYS are explicitly denied any option for Covid (or covid antibody) testing...... this mandate most certainly differs from the quoted example. 

Both involve injecting something into the body, I believe is the reasoning for that example. 

[MsKreed 1,173]

5 minutes ago, Chris said:

Both involve injecting something into the body, I believe is the reasoning for that example. 

That's a loose analogy, but not exactly an apples to apples comparison, since one is a minute amount administered intradermally as opposed to a full dose. 

I for one, voluntarily sought out intradermal testing for the likely allergens in the various vaccines. The positive reaction determined for the doctors that an intramuscular full vaccine is a really bad idea. 

I really can't fathom why so many politicians and vaccine mandate supporters are so vehemently opposed to testing options that are supported by science.....even at the risk of dangerously low staffing rates.

32 minutes ago, KarenK said:

Peoples reasoning to get it or not is really all over the place and sometimes bordering on alarming but still it should remain their choice.

Yeah, valid or absurd, it's their choice. And cries of "abandoning patients" seems a bit too Soviet for me.....as if the collective has some "right" to their servitude.

[Chris 2,158]

24 minutes ago, MsKreed said:

That's a loose analogy,

Yeah I fully admit that. 😉 I guess to me it’s a if you’re gonna do “my body, my choice”, go all in or nothing sort of thing.

[MsKreed 1,173]

14 minutes ago, Chris said:

Yeah I fully admit that. 😉 I guess to me it’s a if you’re gonna do “my body, my choice”, go all in or nothing sort of thing.

I guess "Devil's Advocate" is one angle....but frankly, I'm weary of the reductio ad absurdum that's become rife on both sides.

Being among the minority of people for whom vaccines can pose real life risks, the ever-louder screams of "safe and effective!! 😬" by keyboard warriors almost feels a little threatening at times.

As if either we minority cases are expendable, or the harpies are just too thick-headed and self-righteous to grasp (or respect) others' circumstances. 

[TTL News 307]

JUST IN:

Quote

 

UTICA, N.Y. -- A federal judge temporarily blocked the state of New York on Tuesday from forcing medical workers to be vaccinated after a group of health care workers sued, saying their Constitutional rights were violated because the state's mandate disallowed religious exemptions.

Judge David Hurd in Utica issued the order after 17 health professionals, including doctors and nurses, claimed in a lawsuit Monday that their rights were violated with a vaccine mandate that disallowed the exemption,

The judge gave New York state until Sept. 22 to respond to the lawsuit in federal court in Utica. If the state opposes the plaintiffs' request for a preliminary court order blocking the vaccine mandate, a Sept. 28 oral hearing will occur.

The state issued the order Aug. 28, requiring at least a first shot for health care workers at hospitals and nursing homes by Sept. 27.

In their lawsuit, health care professionals disguised their identities with pseudonyms such as “Dr. A.,” “Nurse A.,” and “Physician Liaison X.”

They cited violations of the U.S. Constitution, along with the New York State Human Rights Law and New York City Human Rights Law, because the state Department of Health regulation requiring workers to get the vaccine provided no exemption for “sincere religious beliefs that compel the refusal of such vaccination.”

The court papers said all of the available vaccines employ aborted fetus cell lines in their testing, development or production.

 

Source

[Chris 2,158]

2 hours ago, MsKreed said:

I really can't fathom why so many politicians and vaccine mandate supporters are so vehemently opposed to testing options that are supported by science.....even at the risk of dangerously low staffing rates

From the very beginning, this should have been an A or B choice: Vaccine or regular testing. They offered it to the schools staff, why not health care?

2 hours ago, MsKreed said:

And cries of "abandoning patients" seems a bit too Soviet for me.....as if the collective has some "right" to their servitude.

While I get what you're saying, and logically I agree, I have to confess my knee jerk response was to feel like they're abandoning not only the patients who need them, but perhaps more importantly their co-workers who will be left to pick up the slack. I once worked with nurses who regularly went without meal breaks and were practically wetting their pants they'd been holding it so long. Why? Because there was work to be done, someone needed help more than they needed to eat or relieve themselves. So to see health care workers even threatening to walk off the job irritates me. You're leaving your team holding the bag, if nothing else. 

That said, I get it. And if you can live with yourself then cheers I guess. 

Ultimately, I don't give a damn what someone does or doesn't do. You don't want the shot? Then don't get it. But one, I don't want to hear the "woe is me" stories as shown on the TV when someone gets sick. You made a choice, here's the result. But also, the anti-vax people need to STFU with their B.S. statistics and "facts" that they never can seem to back up. Which, if you know me, is pretty well keeping with my past views. You don't want it, again, I don't care. End of story. If it's such a personal choice to you, then you do you pumpkin, enjoy your ionized water and panda piss elixir you think is boosting your immune system. 

And in return I'll do my thing. 

My co-worker isn't vaccinated and doesn't want to be. My response, if there should be any, shouldn't be more than pull my mask up with a shrug of the shoulders. ( And it wasn't. ) 

The problem these days is everyone thinks their opinion or views are the gospel truth and anyone who thinks otherwise needs to be verbally browbeaten over it. 

In the end, this thing has been so over politicized it's no wonder we're in this position as a society. Thank Christ is isn't Ebola, you'd have people arguing in the streets while bleeding out of every orfice. 

 

[MsKreed 1,173]

43 minutes ago, TwinTiersLiving said:

The court papers said all of the available vaccines employ aborted fetus cell lines in their testing, development or production.

This is the first I'd heard of this claim.  If true, I do see many people could sincerely find that objectionable (even if I personally don't). 

24 minutes ago, Chris said:

I once worked with nurses who regularly went without meal breaks and were practically wetting their pants they'd been holding it so long. Why? Because there was work to be done, someone needed help more than they needed to eat or relieve themselves. So to see health care workers even threatening to walk off the job irritates me. You're leaving your team holding the bag, if nothing else. 

I get that sentiment....I really do.  

But I also feel that can apply to any number of "limits" that someone may have for their personal career choice. Whether they're putting up with low pay, exhausting shifts, aches from heavy lifting, shitty clueless administration.....or a work schedule that interferes with their Euchre league, their choice whether to stay or go is likely to affect patient care and coworkers' burden. 

34 minutes ago, Chris said:

The problem these days is everyone thinks their opinion or views are the gospel truth and anyone who thinks otherwise needs to be verbally browbeaten over it. 

What does that verbal browbeating look like? :

35 minutes ago, Chris said:

Ultimately, I don't give a damn what someone does or doesn't do. You don't want the shot? Then don't get it. But one, I don't want to hear the "woe is me" stories as shown on the TV when someone gets sick. You made a choice, here's the result. But also, the anti-vax people need to STFU with their B.S. statistics and "facts" that they never can seem to back up. Which, if you know me, is pretty well keeping with my past views. You don't want it, again, I don't care. End of story. If it's such a personal choice to you, then you do you pumpkin, enjoy your ionized water and panda piss elixir you think is boosting your immune system. 

Of course, you're welcome to your own views.

I'm not entirely clear if the STFU and aversion to "woe is me" stories is confined to conspiracy-based anti-vaxx zealots....or whether anti-vax B.S. statistics and "facts" that aren't backed up extends to those with medical contraindications to vaccine ingredients. 

It does seem like you've expressly opted not to note any distinction between reasonable or unreasonable "choices" not to vaccinate.  Copy that. 

I'll also make a note to refrain from "woe is me" stories if I ever have a raging infection that doesn't respond to the myacin antibiotic family...since it's my "choice" to have penicillin & sulfa allergies.