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Chris

First Arena

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14 minutes ago, Chris said:

Am I reading this wrong or is HVAC something the tenant is NOT responsible for?

To me, it seems to read Tenant (Mammoth) is responsible for maintenance (which is what Donner claims CCIDA is "delinquent" in).  

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If the Tenant neglects to properly maintain equipment, they are responsible for replacement...

 

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It appears that he Landlord (CCIDA) is only responsible for "capital replacement" if something needs to be replaced through no fault of the Tenant's neglect.

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20 hours ago, MsKreed said:

o me, it seems to read Tenant (Mammoth) is responsible for maintenance

Ah, I see the difference there. I never was too fluent in legalese. 

At this point I say tear the damned thing down. Perhaps leave a couple lots for someone to build something ( other than a Dollar General ) and return the rest to a municipal parking lot. Or, I suppose they could turn it into green space and make it an add on to Wisner Park, especially for special events. 

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This letter is in response to the Notice of Lease Termination letter dated Friday, May 12, 2023, but not delivered to our office until Tuesday, May 16, 2023. I am disappointed in the position the Chemung County IDA (CCIDA) has taken regarding the lease, and we wholeheartedly dispute the termination and the basis outlined in the letter.
We strongly believe the CCIDA has major issues and landlord liability involving long-term improper maintenance of First Arena as well as not providing a facility capable of functioning on an efficient and profitable basis. Mammoth Sports and Entertainment (MSE) entered the lease in good faith believing the CCIDA would be working together with them to renovate a closed arena and build a long-term business plan for the success of the arena.
 
In response to the items cited in the termination letter we believe the CCIDA is either ignoring or not acknowledging some major issues from their actions or lack thereof:
 
1. NEGOTIATIONS TIME FRAME
Although both parties negotiated a lease in general good faith, the contract took so long for the CCIDA to approve, the result negated any opportunity for the arena to drive appropriate revenue in year one and prevented MSE from purchasing a hockey franchise in time for the 2021-22 season. MSE made every effort to get pro hockey in place, but the FPHL season had already started, and the league put the franchise off until the following season. This was discovered within 60 days of the lease being signed and approved. In and upon itself, this issue ensured that MSE would suffer large operating losses in the first twelve months. The arena could not generate enough revenue without a major tenant to break even or make a profit.
 
2. THE ARENA WAS HANDED OVER TO MSE IN INOPERABLE CONDITION
The Arena had been closed for more than 7 months when MSE took control of the arena operations. There was a well-documented dispute between the CCIDA and the former operator of the arena. The arena was abruptly closed and was not shut down properly. The arena sat closed for a long period of time without proper monitoring of HVAC or of any equipment inside the arena. Large piles of garbage were left everywhere in the arena. We loaded three (3) 30-foot dumpsters of garbage cleaning the arena up. No proper inspection for damage to the arena or inventory of arena property was done by the CCIDA prior to turning over the arena to MSE. The arena was completely inoperable to host any events when we first took over the facility.
 
The list below includes much of what we encountered upon taking over the arena:
-Outdoor message board inoperable
-Center hung Video Scoreboard inoperable
-The Main arena sound system operated at 30% of capacity
-Main floor restaurant kitchen inoperable
-Main level restaurant floor was cracked and deteriorated and needed replacement
-Suite Level Kitchen was trashed and inoperable
-Suite level restaurant floor needed replacement
-Hood fan in Suite kitchen inoperable
-All refrigerators, coolers and freezers not operable
-Six-Inch-wide drain in Suite kitchen was filled solid with grease (50 feet long). The drain had to be taken down on a lift in four-foot sections and taken off-site for cleaning then re-assembled using lifts.
-Beer coolers in bars not operable
-Had to replace over 160 light fixtures and ballasts
-All bathrooms in the arena needed repair and were not fully functioning
-No ticketing system
-No office phone system
-Internet was old and not functioning correctly; Internet shut down constantly during events due to overload; Had to be replaced costing the operation thousands of dollars
-Rec Rink Sound system destroyed
-No working Rec Rink Scoreboards
-Dehumidifier in Rec Not working/still not replaced
-Only 2 of 12 Roof Top HVAC systems were working: most still not functioning properly
-Locker showers had to be replaced
-Entire arena needed painting. Most of the arena has now been painted.
-Outside arena doors were in bad shape and many still need repair
-Countless ceiling tiles were stained or damaged
-Flat roof in need of replacement. constant leaks
-Major damage to main arena hockey boards
-Mold in multiple areas of the Rec Rink. MSE removed the mold at a cost savings of up to $70,000 the county had budgeted to pay.
-Holes in walls throughout the arena and pulled-out wires and pipes.
The items above represent major repairs and renovations and not typical day-to-day maintenance.
 
3. FORMER TENANT DAMAGE AND MISSING ITEMS
It became known to MSE 60 days into operating the arena that the former tenant was grossly negligent in arena maintenance and took numerous items necessary to host events at the arena out of the arena when he was evicted. This includes but is not limited to the basketball floor, shot clocks, scoreboard parts, manuals, ice ramp, ice edger, Zamboni parts, ice-making equipment, tables, hoses, ladders, and chairs. The list is large.
In addition to the items taken from the arena there was substantial damage done to the arena in the kitchens, bathrooms, and concession stands all over the building. We made the CCIDA board aware of missing items and damage throughout the building and it was discussed at more than one IDA meeting and the CCIDA decided to take no action. This has further hurt our ability to operate the arena and increased costs for MSE.
 
4. HVAC and DEHUMIDIFICATION ISSUES
A major set of issues relating directly to the massive energy costs at the Arena have to do with the condition of the HVAC equipment and the lack of a functioning Dehumidifier in the Rec Rink. Our lease has the responsibility of HVAC repair by the CCIDA. We are a year and a half into the lease and there has been no replacement of the Dehumidifier in the Rec Rink.
 
The lack of a Dehumidifier in the Rec Rink causes major humidity issues and damages pipes, scoreboards, sound systems, lighting and literally everything in the arena. The HVAC system in the Rec Rink is tied into the main system and so the system has to pump warm air and cold air into the Rec Rink and Main Arena at the same time.
 
We have been made aware of an independent analysis that was done on the arena system by Siemens Energy and reported to the CCIDA. The report showed that the system is completely out of control with parts of the system operating against each other. There are a large number of sensors that are not functioning that would help regulate the HVAC system. It is the CCIDA’s responsibility in the lease to properly fix the HVAC systems. These have not been fixed. There is currently no proper way to operate the Arena system efficiently. This has directly led to massive energy bills.
 
5. CCIDA LACK OF CONFIDENTIALITY
MSE has had a concern from the beginning of the lease about the CCIDA Boards’ lack of confidentiality relating to MSE operations, and finances. There have been multiple leaks of MSE confidential information and correspondence actually copied and shown to me by sponsors. There have been social media leaks copying information online regarding MSE business. This is unethical, unprofessional, and a tremendous breach of trust. It has led to caution and hesitance on behalf of MSE to communicate reports and financial information. This has further hurt our ability to conduct our business properly. One massive direct example of this lack of confidentiality is the press receiving a copy of the notice of lease termination prior to it being delivered to MSE this week.
 
6. DIRECT INTERFERENCE WITH BUSINESS GROWTH AND INVESTMENT
CCIDA was respectfully informed that MSE was in final negotiations to add an additional business partner bringing both enthusiasm and significant capital to the organization arena project. The timing of this was disclosed well in advance and the CCIDA rushed to publicly announce this Notice of Termination which has now directly blocked the interest and advancement of this investment. The issues and items above have caused major interruptions and challenges to MSE in its attempt to build a successful business model in operating the arena. Despite the setbacks, condition of the arena, lack of response from the CCIDA on proper maintenance and repair of key arena systems, MSE has brought pro hockey, college hockey, pro lacrosse and 45 other diverse events to the arena in the first full season of operation. Due to the issues above, MSE is seeking a major rent and costs abatement to be mutually negotiated as a remedy to support the losses we have incurred.
 
The CCIDA has shown a history of inconsistent decisions that have had negative effects on the condition and operation of the Arena. Due to this, we request a mutually agreeable mediator be named to assess the claims of both parties and help settle the disputes.
 
Respectfully,
Mammoth Sports and Entertainment, LLC

 

 

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I'd like to see it auctioned off to any private buyer who wants it. If someone wants to use their own money to try to turn a profit (without any extra incentives, backroom deals or strings attached for taxpayers), more power to them!  

 

It's been owned by the County (under its shell companies STED and IDA) for about 10 years and wholly exempt from all taxes. Real Property shows an assessment of $2 million. Aside from the operating costs and ARP money it's sucking up, how much tax revenue has been lost in that time? Ten years of no City taxes, no County taxes and no School taxes.

Even if someone buys it for a $100 and leaves it vacant, as long as they're paying taxes I think it's a better deal for the entire county. 

 

Edited by MsKreed
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1 hour ago, Elmira Telegram said:
5. CCIDA LACK OF CONFIDENTIALITY
MSE has had a concern from the beginning of the lease about the CCIDA Boards’ lack of confidentiality relating to MSE operations, and finances. There have been multiple leaks of MSE confidential information and correspondence actually copied and shown to me by sponsors. There have been social media leaks copying information online regarding MSE business. This is unethical, unprofessional, and a tremendous breach of trust. It has led to caution and hesitance on behalf of MSE to communicate reports and financial information. This has further hurt our ability to conduct our business properly. One massive direct example of this lack of confidentiality is the press receiving a copy of the notice of lease termination prior to it being delivered to MSE this week.

To me, this reeks of shadiness.

If anything, the CCIDA has not been nearly transparent enough about the operations and finances of this publicly owned facility

 

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While Donner reeks of con artist, the problem here is that the county is also terrible. It's crap vs crap.

While the FPHL hockey is not my personal type of hockey, it did have a following. It doesn't cost as much to run a team in that league and I think could survive here but Robbie is the only one who be willing to come back and we all know the county isn't doing that. I honestly don't know who could come in and save this arena. 

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40 minutes ago, LocalSportsGuy said:

While Donner reeks of con artist, the problem here is that the county is also terrible. It's crap vs crap.

Absolutely!!

Donner may have seized the opportunity to con the CCIDA, but he didn't create the situation. The County (and City at the beginning) have refused to cut our losses and admit the Arena is a burden that needs to be abandoned as a publicly owned facility. 

I think that the last 20+ years of drama have possibly blurred perception of what “success” for the Arena is supposed to look like.  Simply offsetting a small portion of the taxpayers’ ongoing costs is a net loss – not a “successful” business venture.  

Admittedly, I’m not a live hockey fan or player or parent of a hockey kid......I don’t even have an understating of the various leagues like ECHL or FPHL, etc (other than NHL is the “big” one). But I will totally accept the word of hockey fans who say that, at some point, First Arena was filling seats at hockey games.

The (several) million-dollar question is whether just hockey will pay the bills.  From the start, it was assumed that was not the case, and the Arena would need to be a multi-use venue that drew crowds for events in addition to hockey.  In 1999 when the City and County first “invested” in the place......it was touted as a “Civic Center” that would host all kinds of events for broad audiences year round.

The original owners almost immediately defaulted on bills and were several years in arrears for property taxes before the County took ownership (and removed it from tax rolls). To date, no operator has ever been able to draw enough revenue to maintain the facility and cover operating expenses.....let alone pay City, County and School taxes. 

 

In fact, other than the original Afr promises (that quickly proved false), has anyone ever even offered to try to operate the Arena as a fully self-sustaining business that can pay for operations, staffing, maintenance and taxes from its own sales?

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Unfortunately this boondoggle  been hung around taxpayers necks for far too long , its time , time to tear it down ! As stated here before almost on an annual basis , get it gone and make room for some smaller retail stores leaving plenty of parking and no I don’t mean another tumbling down crappy multi level , homeless settlement excuse for a parking garage . 
As an old Drill Instructor told us in boot camp … its time to “Fight or F**k but Get out of the Rain “ , CCIDA has played Pickle Ball with this money suck long enough … tear it down ! 

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Seems like Chemung County should look at its own Glass House if we're going to throw stones...

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The Mammoth Fan Page saying that Donner moved out. I went by the arena today and noticed there was no lights on the outside advertisement and everything was taken out of the shop. 

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Read more at WENY News

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In an exclusive interview with WENY News, Steve Donner said he will turn the arena back over to the Chemung County Industrial Development Agency, after initially requesting a mediator. 

"In an agonizing series of days and weeks, we have come to the conclusion to not fight the termination from CCIDA, and surrender the building back to the county," Donner said. 

 

 

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Well great, back to square one with a giant building sitting empty in the middle of downtown.

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Back to Square One should entail a full, transparent and publicly accessible audit and historical accounting of annual costs to taxpayers before the CCIDA makes any more decisions......and before any further funds are paid by the Legislature/Exec (including a hold on any currently approved ARP funds that have not been disbursed yet).

 

There have been a lot of costs over the years – some more widely publicized than others. Here are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head:

It was in the news in 1999 when the County Legislature forked over more than $1 million.

Later, the CCIDA purchased the building for $3.5 million (including $1M allocated from Casella grant contributions).

A large chunk of the County Room tax goes straight to the IDA for Arena operations every year ($103k for at least the past 10 years - so more than $1 million - and still counting).

The nearly $1 million ($375k + $500k) approved from the County ARP funds were a little less public and listed on Minutes/Agendas as “budget transfers” to the CCIDA.

 

None of the Arena owners have ever paid Property taxes (only sewer and special taxes, when they aren’t in arrears). This was even when it was assessed at a $17 million Market Value. That assessment has dropped dramatically over the years (to a low of $1.1 M in 2014, and now back “up” to $2.4M).  At the new “depreciated” values of $1-2M....the County, City and School taxes on comparably assessed commercial add up to something like $40-60,000 in lost tax revenue every year, for over two decades.

 

And I’d wager a guess that a full accounting would reveal a few more (hidden costs and expenses) that I’m not even aware have taken place year after year.

Edited by MsKreed
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2 minutes ago, MsKreed said:

Back to Square One should entail a full, transparent and publicly accessible audit and historical accounting of annual costs to taxpayers before the CCIDA makes any more decisions......and before any further funds are paid by the Legislature/Exec (including a hold on any currently approved ARP funds that have not been disbursed yet).

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I'm not too optimistic. They have that ARP money burning a hole in their pocket, and history is proven they love to throw good money after bad. They can't help themselves when it comes to this place. 

I don't mean to sound so pessimistic, but I'm sick and tired of this place failing over and over and over.

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The IDA is nothing but a public mafia operation at this juncture. The arena has always been a hilarious operation to me. Every politician associated with this place always got out at just the right time. Whether it be the two original kingpins Hughes and Iraci or Tom Santulli to even that clown Mike Krusen. He was better off losing the county executive race but had he wn they probably would have found a way to sweep this place under the rug. 

I always laughed at the public hate they forced on the Afrs. I'm not saying the Afrs were saints by any juncture but it's funny to me that ever since itcame under local control its no different then when they ran the show. Except at least the Afrs gave us hockey and usually good hockey at that. Now you're lucky if in a given year there will be hockey. 

I always fund it puzzling how Tom Freeman got a pass from the community. People said that guy was a billionaire. If that's true he's no different than any other billionaire nationally orglobally. Surewecould blame Afr but you have to blame the politicians and IDA. They all made the deal. It wasn't until this joint ended up in court that anybody found out who actually owned it. The IDA has always owned it and never paid a dime. I remember when Freeman got it and they decided to have the hockey team be a community entity only it was pure bullshit. The community responsible was nothing more than 20 "business" people who were nothing more than buddies of the chamber of commerce. Dudes who had no business running a hockey team and knew very little about it. Ask me how I know...let's just say I was related to one. 

It was never really revealed how Freeman got rid of it all other then everything ended up with the county. The dog and pony show later like 2 or 3 years. Then it was the spring of the year emperor Santuli was retiring. Allegedly they had a buyer. To the point of a press conference and a name drop and media attention. Then a month or so later it's like it never happened and we never found out why. Back to square one. They kept telling us they didn't want to be in the arena business. Yet here's are they don't wanna sell it and they want whoever buys it to buy it with sll the debt racked up by every other owner. I remember when they were first touting selling this joint. They said they had quite a few offers even with those who have NHL experience  yet it's like 6 or 7 years later and no sales even close. They had someone running it. They just can't be happy. 

These guys were doing better than Robbie but it didn't even matter. This place us a classic example of your local government claiming they care about you yet they do the same thing the non local guy was doing from day one. Once all the local politicians were on the let's get rid of Afr train I knew the jig was up and I jumped sides on that. If you were a fan back in the day I think you would share the sentiment of I would take the years of Afr running the building back in a heartbeat. Yes the arena was in ruins but let's not act like with local care they've ever improved shot. Classic case of we were all better off not knowing the inside info on this place.

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4 hours ago, JustAGuy said:

The IDA is nothing but a public mafia operation at this juncture. The arena has always been a hilarious operation to me. Every politician associated with this place always got out at just the right time. Whether it be the two original kingpins Hughes and Iraci or Tom Santulli to even that clown Mike Krusen. He was better off losing the county executive race but had he wn they probably would have found a way to sweep this place under the rug. 

Valid comparison.....

There is a small handful of non-profit organizations seem to have enormous control over a lot of financial matters in the County.

And there is a good amount of “cross-over” with many of the same businesses and individuals having seats on those various (unelected) Boards of Directors (CCIDA, STEG, even the Chamber of Commerce, etc).

That's why there needs to be a full examination and accountability on the finances. 

It really isn’t a far stretch to believe some of these entities, given free rein, could have incentives to discourage growth and prosperity in some sectors.

While some of those business interests have changed over the years, there’s been a rumor floating since the 1950’s that a few such influential Boards and “community leaders” were instrumental in preventing Ford Motors from opening a plant in Elmira.....due to fears of potential competition that may force them to raise wages/benefits for their own workforces.  

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On 5/26/2023 at 7:05 PM, MsKreed said:

That's why there needs to be a full examination and accountability on the finances. 

Full examination and all of it made public. I wouldn't trust the foxes to tell us everything is all fine in the henhouse. 

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I find it hilarious as shit that the almighty IDA overtakes this joint back but they won't respond to the community or the news about how people get refunds for things. You could say that is the job of Steve Donner but is it really? They pulled the plug on him. It seems like they want to play God but be exempt from all the responsibilities it entails. I also find it funny that the IDA has kicked Donner out but he is trying to get another hockey team for this winter. Nice gesture but who the he'll is running it? We know it won't be him. If they kicked him out why would they bring him back? We know it won't be the IDA. Why don't they just have an auction? Wasn't the rumor years back that they would auction this joint off or were trying to?

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On 5/26/2023 at 7:05 PM, MsKreed said:

Valid comparison.....

There is a small handful of non-profit organizations seem to have enormous control over a lot of financial matters in the County.

And there is a good amount of “cross-over” with many of the same businesses and individuals having seats on those various (unelected) Boards of Directors (CCIDA, STEG, even the Chamber of Commerce, etc).

That's why there needs to be a full examination and accountability on the finances. 

It really isn’t a far stretch to believe some of these entities, given free rein, could have incentives to discourage growth and prosperity in some sectors.

 While some of those business interests have changed over the years, there’s been a rumor floating since the 1950’s that a few such influential Boards and “community leaders” were instrumental in preventing Ford Motors from opening a plant in Elmira.....due to fears of potential competition that may force them to raise wages/benefits for their own workforces.  

 

The 50s were definitely before my time haha but I did not have any idea they considered a Ford plant here. Granted by now it would have more than likely been eliminated I suppose. I forgot all about the name STED. Southern Tier Economic Development. Whatever happened to that group? They were the big name when Afr was taken to court. Nw it's the CCIDA doing all the maneuvers. 

I guess if I had to be honest I feel like every city big or small in this country is run the same. Even if some of them appear to be beautiful it's a few snakes who have power and control everything and run them into the ground. With deep pockets you can hide some things but even a city like NYC is a hellhole with cockroaches and rodents running rampant. Our societal system is a house of cards. The debt is a hilarious fiasco. It goes up every second of everyday and a citizen is a debt cost and if you pay taxes you're even more of a burden. It's all funny to me. It all feels like one big shit show. The arena is just our small town introduction. You could never have an investigation because these people won't investigate themselves. They buy off the Freemason politicians to keep them quiet. It's like all these dopes who really believe Hillary Clinyon or Donald Trump would ever see jail cells. The people who "fund" or "support" them won't overthrow them because they are just as guilty as they are but they do grunt work behind the scenes so you don't know their name.

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Many of us want accountability and right now WETM can't even get answers about refunds for tickets already purchased:

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ELMIRA, N.Y. (WETM) – For more than a week, 18 News has been trying to find out when refunds will be issued to Elmira Mammoth season ticket holders, and people who bought tickets for a canceled concert on June 28th, featuring The Players formerly of Chicago and Earth, Wind & Fire. More than two weeks ago, the Chemung County Industrial Development Agency announced it was moving to evict Steve Donner, the CEO of Mammoth Sports & Entertainment. 

In an email to 18 News reporter Nicolas Dubina on Wednesday, Steve Donner said a total of 23 tickets were sold for the concert, totaling $1,405 in sales. Dubina asked Donner how many season passes were sold for the next season of the Elmira Mammoth. On Thursday, Dubina reiterated his question to Donner in an email, and also called his cell phone. Mr. Donner did not return our calls.

For more than a week now, 18 News has also been trying to reach Joe Roman, the Executive Director of the Chemung County Industrial Development Agency. On Thursday, 18 News reporter Nicolas Dubina was told Mr. Roman was in a meeting. Dubina left a message and his contact details but did not hear back. A message on Mr. Roman’s cell phone was also not returned.

 

Source

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1 hour ago, Chris said:

Many of us want accountability and right now WETM can't even get answers about refunds for tickets already purchased:

Source

No surprise.  Tear the damn thing down, leave spots for smaller businesses and much needed parking.

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4 hours ago, Ann said:

No surprise.  Tear the damn thing down, leave spots for smaller businesses and much needed parking.

local gov needs a good cleaning as well. any of us in the private sector screwed the pooch this much and often, wed be out of a job tout suite

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On 6/2/2023 at 6:06 PM, Adam said:

local gov needs a good cleaning as well. any of us in the private sector screwed the pooch this much and often, wed be out of a job tout suite

I wonder why citizens in this world are so obedient. Maybe it's the worthless education system, hell I don't kknow.but it does blow me away. We live in a world where the government can screw up at all levels with no repercussions. We pay taxes endlessly and pay for our God given rights of food, shelter and water. We are the only species that pay to live on this hellhole so called planet. The buffoons running the shit show are at an all you can eat buffet racking up the debt never intending to pay it back but tell you we must fight the good fight and attempt to pay it off. We are all in debt. In debt to whom exactly? There is a site out there where you can look at the debt clock in live time. It's both sad and amusing. Each erson in this world is debt, you're in even bigger debt if you're a citizen taxpayer. Nobody in the world without an agenda tied to the fallacy could explain that to make any sense. 

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On 6/2/2023 at 1:38 PM, Ann said:

No surprise.  Tear the damn thing down, leave spots for smaller businesses and much needed parking.

It would be a good place to house drug addicts and homeless people. Let people with problems have free reigns to have them. I would rather tear down the prisons before this place. Housing people for drugs the CIA makes billions off of benefits nobody but the government. 

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