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Brand Park Pool

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7 minutes ago, Ann said:

Personally I think it’s a waste to spend that much money on a playground and splash pool.  We all saw what happened to the fountain on Water Street and I’d bet money it won’t be long before it gets misused.

They have to do something or have something, I guess.  Cost wise, it's really not an outrageous amount for what they have planned and if they don't put something up for the kids the "people" will have a fit.  Brand Park has always been one of the better parks in Elmira so hopefully it will remain that way.

There will always be people who trash things, but you can't just stop trying to improve and give people places to go because of a few miscreants.

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How does the restoration of Brand Park Pool fit in to modern city planning practices and help improve Elmira (Part 1)?

The American Planning Association describes a city with more than 50% of its downtown in vacant lots and unoccupied buildings as dead. When we neglect and tear down a building and replace it with a parking or vacant lot–like the magnificent Armory and other buildings that fit so beautifully into the design fabric of our city–or with buildings that have no place in a downtown, like dollar stores–we create blight.

Our ancestors, who built a magnificent city, must be turning over in their graves. They had a vision of grandeur and vigor; they appreciated beauty and a cohesive design for their downtown. They built a city that was THE PLACE to meet in the Southern Tier, a destination, not a drive-through. It was a place of pride, beauty, vitality, distinction, business, and fun. We’ve lost that vision and are living in a period of urban uglification. We are mauling/malling our city, with devastating results. No wonder people have little positive to say about Elmira. No wonder we lose population every year.

Since the 1970s, many small towns have wised up, and they have generated $100s of millions annually in urban investment. They do it according to 3 fundamental principles: downtown revitalization, historic preservation, and small, diverse business development. Unlike Elmira, they have functioning, dedicated historic societies with a seat at the table--Veteran’s puts to shame the disfunctional, phantom one in Elmira. These towns believe in the importance of building small businesses locally, from the ground up. They know that no pie-in-the-sky developments from the outside are going to save the city.

In BPP, we have a building that makes Elmira distinctive and special, one of only 2 remaining Wesley Bintz pools in NY. Imagine it restored. If friends or family from away came to visit you, would you take them to see it or to swim there? and to a splash pad?

The NY SWIMS grant to restore BPP would bring immense dividends to District 5, to the City of Elmira, and to the Southern Tier. Here are some of the benefits:

1.    It would help stabilize and improve the Maple Ave. neighborhood.
2.    It would stimulate economic development and investment on Elmira's Southside. There is virtually nothing of comparable value that the City could do to give a special boost to the 5th district, to our underserved communities and to Elmira itself.
3.    It would provide millions of dollars to local businesses to complete the project.
4.    The recreational opportunities of a pool would reach far more people than any other activity. It would serve all Elmirans and others in the area, in large numbers, from young to old, and be inclusive of all people, regardless of economic status, race, etc. When I ran for office last year, many people said to me: we have lots of things for the very young to do, but very little for our older youth. Here is a wonderful opportunity to address that need, not only for them, but for people of all ages.
5.    The variety of activities would be limited only by our imaginations. We might sponsor, for example, money-raising activities, like Philadelphia’s aquatic zumba classes, or rent it for private events like birthday parties.
6.    A restored pool would offer a safe place for people of diverse backgrounds, ages, etc., to meet, have fun, and socialize. Studies have shown that pools promote a sense of community and nourish democracy. It would also provide a setting to escape the heat, the internet, or a difficult living environment. It is no wonder that kids used to stay at BPP all day. It was THE meeting place, THE gathering spot, a focal center in downtown Elmira.
7.    We would restore a rare and beautiful historic monument and architectural gem in Elmira and NY State, one that would give character to Elmira, be a source of community pride, and generate interest even nationwide.
8.    The building would add to the tourism base of Elmira and our region, and it would serve those involved in the tourism business here.
9.    If we apply to have the pool placed on the National Historic Register, it would be eligible in the future for grants to help maintain and promote the facility and Elmira.
10.    It would become a magnificent, beautiful cornerstone of Elmira’s downtown and thus serve as a catalyst for downtown revitalization; and its loss would undoubtedly lead to less interest and more decay.
11.    It would provide incentives for SUNY students to become lifeguards and so create a great partnership between the City and CCC.
12.    It would give Elmirans the opportunity to establish a fund to help run and maintain the pool.
13.    Finally, let’s not forget that splash pads/playground equipment are also included in the grant, and those in BPP are in serious need of replacing.

Can you say the same about another splash pad? By demolishing BPP and putting up another splash pad, these are the results when can expect in the area:

1.    Another splash pad, which will replace the rusted out, neglected pad and derelict equipment already there–thank you, City Council
2.    Creation of more blight and decay in Elmira’s downtown and the 5th District
3.    No additional recreational activities for our older youth or adults
4.    No enhancement or investment stimulus to the area
5.    Reduced interest in tourism
6.    No influx of millions of dollars provided under the NY SWIMS grant
7.    Loss of another rare and magnificent historic structure that gives character and enormous recreational opportunities to our city and the Southern Tier
8.    Continued loss of population and further disregard for the City of Elmira.


What are the real reasons for the demolition of BPP (Part 2)?

First and foremost, our City leaders have for decades suffered under the curse of the ‘72 tear-down mentality and have never valued historic preservation. In 2016, they knew that City Hall needed repair. Yet they waited 8 years to do anything about it, leading to a cost now over $4 million. Wonder what it would have cost in 2016. Were they hoping to let it decline to the point of no return, then tear it down and perhaps replace it with another vacant lot or tin warehouse? or leave it for another administration? And what about the derelect skating pad in Eldridge Park? It took a citizens’ initiative to have that repaired. As for Maxwell Place Fire Station, sold for a penny in 2020. And now the neglected BPP, decayed splash pad and playground equipment.

The bottom line is that the City has been determined to tear the building down all along, and it has never provided any convincing justification. Before the NYSWIMS grant became available, they claimed the cost of restoration would be too high, though they admit that even then they didn’t know the cost and still today don’t. Now that the state offers up to $10 million for restoration, they try to justify their decision by claiming that the cost may be even higher than that, though a more reasonable estimate is $4-$6 million. Earlier this summer, the state required the City to commission an engineering report on the state of BPP. Curiously, that report provides no cost estimate for restoration: an obvious omission that underscores their disingenuity and deception. For them, the report was a mere formality.

They also claim that the City doesn’t have the money for maintenance or insurance for a building used only a few months each summer, though they have admitted in recent Council meetings and interviews with the press that they have no notion of those costs either. By comparison, let’s consider these expenses with those of the City’s golf course, also used only a few months in the summer. They were never an issue; nor was the $2million in ARP funds used to replace the sprinkler system. Do you suppose they took into consideration the cost of maintenance and insurance, figures they should have known? I doubt it. How about the clientele? By the way, I FOILed those costs but have never received them. Let me know if you find out. And let me know too if you can discover if the golf course actually makes money and can take care of itself.

The issue here is one of what and whom we value. The mayor claims that the ARP grant that funded the sprinkler was intended to contribute to the improvement of the north side of Elmira. Do you suppose he meant Elmira Heights? Compared to the restoration of BPP, the sprinkler system offers little of comparable value to Elmira. It is not simply that the NY SWIMS grant targets Elmira’s underserved people and communities. It is also that the restoration of BPP would have a massive impact on the 5th Dictrict and on the revitalization of Elmira’s downtown, and it could be placed on the National Historic Register and become eligible for further grants. People and organizations like the Brand Park Beautification Committee might find opportunities to establish a fund to help run and maintain the pool and to enhance its relevance to Elmira.

When was the last time the City made a meaningful effort to serve Elmira’s underserved people and communities? In an interview with the press this past fall, Elmira’s city manager made the insensitive suggestion that our kids could use the pools in West Elmira and on Harris Hill. I wonder if he understood who are the children the grant is trying primarily to reach. How are they going to get to Harris Hill? And as for West Elmira, the cost is higher for anyone who doesn’t live there, and, in addition, it is very uninviting to various groups, especially those the grant targets. At the same time, he fails to note that the City could send our kids to the other splash pads in Elmira’s parks. Why add another, when what most Elmirans need and want is a swimming pool. But remember, splash pads and playground equipment are also included in the NY SWIMS grant.

Finally, many of you experienced and know of the profound meaning and memories of shared experience, joy, and comfort BPP brought to Elmirans. Can you expect the same of a splash pad? BPP was special and could be so again. Let me share one of the many stories that people have written and told me about the impact BPP had on their lives, this one by a lady who grew up at the pool: “What a shame for the kids in Elmira to not have a pool. That pool would be an investment in the community.  We swam in that pool all summer long. We learned to swim there. We learned how to get along with all kinds of people. We learned how to budget our allowance so we could swim so many times per week and still afford a nickel candy bar. We learned to mind the rules and share space. So many lessons were learned there. What a shame not to invest in communities children if there is a chance...”

In the end, why wouldn’t the City apply for the grant? It costs nothing. Why would it turn down $10 million? Shouldn’t the City allow the state decide if the BPP project is worthwhile? Restoring BPP might lead to a change of thinking about our city. We might begin to learn and appreciate the value historic preservation brings to downtown revitalization, as 1000s of towns across America have already discovered. We might begin a period of rebuilding with vision and reliance on modern design principles. WAKE UP, ELMIRA. If we expect to restore some grandeur and vitality to Elmira and if we want to stem the flight of our youth, we must stop destroying our downtown and our heritage buildings; we must shed the ‘72 tear-down mentality, and we must attend to the needs of our most neglected, underserved communities. We must stop turning our backs on our underserved districts, on our youth, and on a thriving downtown.

 

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In a phone call in February, Sue Skidmore told 18 News “It wasn’t economically feasible to sustain the pool, even if it was restored. It was just not a realistic return on investment. Attendance had also dropped substantially to the point where 60 to 80 kids were using the pool over the course of the summer season.” A WETM report from 1985 states up to 300 kids could be using the pool on a daily basis.

Former City Council Member and Elmira Mayor Jim Hare echoed Skidmore’s sentiment. “From a practical standpoint, it just didn’t make sense economically and the city didn’t have the money,” Hare said. “At this point, the structure is past its original purpose.”

 

Source

I'd bet cash money that if that were pool were able to be open this summer, you'd have even less than 60-80 kids using it.

Look at the condition the building is in. Look at the graffiti and the vandalism. That right there is why you can't have nice things in Elmira - the very people things like that are meant to serve don't value them. 

We're going on twenty years that the pools been closed. In that time, two or three other people or groups of people have given us the same spiel. And each time, they finally figured out that the people of the city don't really give a damn about it. If they did, it'd have been protected and in use this summer. 

It's completely asinine to dump millions of taxpayer dollars into something that is open a total of two, maybe three months a year and only a few dozen people will actually use. Nevermind the ongoing vandalism that would occur on a regular basis the remainder of the year. 

That damn thing can't come down soon enough so we can put the dead horse to rest.

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10 minutes ago, Chris said:

Source

I'd bet cash money that if that were pool were able to be open this summer, you'd have even less than 60-80 kids using it.

Look at the condition the building is in. Look at the graffiti and the vandalism. That right there is why you can't have nice things in Elmira - the very people things like that are meant to serve don't value them. 

We're going on twenty years that the pools been closed. In that time, two or three other people or groups of people have given us the same spiel. And each time, they finally figured out that the people of the city don't really give a damn about it. If they did, it'd have been protected and in use this summer. 

It's completely asinine to dump millions of taxpayer dollars into something that is open a total of two, maybe three months a year and only a few dozen people will actually use. Nevermind the ongoing vandalism that would occur on a regular basis the remainder of the year. 

That damn thing can't come down soon enough so we can put the dead horse to rest.

AMEN!   It's done. Time to move on.

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Have a look at an aerial photo of Elmira. Our city used to be the envy of the entire area. It is now the laughing stock. The tear-down mentality is just causing more decay and population loss. It's because of irresponsible, neglectful government. No wonder they want to get rid of the evidence. Why would you give them any credence? Towns like Elmira that are on the move to a thriving, stable downtown know that historic preservation is a vital component of that. The state offers $10 million that would restore the pool and replace the neglected, decayed splash pad/playground equipment. The part the city would have to pay on that grant is probably about half of what they have budgeted to tear the pool down and put up the pad/equipment. Add it up. It doesn't take rocket science. It costs nothing to apply for the grant. If the state is willing to undertake the restoration, why would anyone turn down the money?

By the way, how often do you folks go to City Council meetings? How often to you contact your council reps? How often do you demand accountability, either of your reps or of yourselves? Does it not bother you that in the last 9 years, if you include the current budget proposal, the City will have raised our taxes by about 25%? Does it not bother you that the City doesn't fine delinquent landlords, whose failure to keep up their properties reduces the value of your homes? Does it not bother you that our City leaders don't try to find ways to reduce our taxes?.....

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Have you done any research on municipal pools? Most cities are getting rid of them because the cost to maintain, insure and staff them is not worth it for 3 - 4 months a year.

Over 1/3 of municipal pools in the US have trouble finding lifeguards. So they have been forced to reduce hours.

With how litigious people are now the insurance on a community pool is outrageous I am sure.

And sure the state will pay to restore the pool, but the pool is in such disarray the best thing would be to tear it down and rebuild it from the ground up. Then it's a ship of Thesuleus deal!

Ok say the state gives the city 10 million to restore the pool. Then what? Does the state also pay for upkeep and maintenance if the pool?

It seems the people that want the pool restored because it's historic are also the people complaining about the city repairing the historic clock and roof of the police station.

Also it's all for sentimental reasons they want the pool saved.

I cannot wait for the bulldozers to clear the rubble so this thread can be locked forever.

https://sportsfacilities.com/combating-the-lifeguard-shortage-a-comprehensive-guide-for-aquatics-center-management/

My city council person is as useful as the potholes that plague our city. You only see her when she's running for re-election.

The city is only yearning down historic buildings that have been neglected for decades and are starting to be a danger to surrounding buildings. Look at water street a lot of historic buildings are still standing along with South Main.

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1 hour ago, Jim said:

The tear-down mentality is just causing more decay and population loss. It's because of irresponsible, neglectful government. No wonder they want to get rid of the evidence. Why would you give them any credence? Towns like Elmira that are on the move to a thriving, stable downtown know that historic preservation is a vital component of that.

it not a tear down mentality plaguing the City, it is a combination of continuing to blame Agnes, apathy of Community and Voters, a tolerance for blight and ignorance on their part as well. Elmira has chased one pipe-dream after another, essentially only seeking the low-hanging fruit no matter how rotten.( a symptom of the irresponsible and neglectful government)

Add in the tendency of sentimentalists to want to save each and every decades-old structure in the area. Yes there are some appealing buildings throughout the City that can be used as a draw, if preserved and put to good, profitable uses, but others are long beyond their use and can detract from future prospects; you do more honor to the City's past by doing what it takes to make it thrive.

 

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1 hour ago, Kevin said:

Then it's a ship of Thesuleus deal!

I knew that reference without using Google!!

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I am so sick of hearing about this pool.  Its a done deal.

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3 hours ago, Jim said:

The state offers $10 million that would restore the pool

This is false.

The state may be accepting applications for grants (between $50,000 and $10 million )  to restore some pools (specifically those that are salvageable)......that's not the same as your statement that they're "offering" a $10 million grant for Brand Park pool.

No matter how emphatically you assert that Brand Park "is" eligible for the top amount, it doesn't make it true.  

In fact, when New York State required an engineering study for that particular pool, it explicitly determined that it could not be salvaged.  There is no reason for any sane person to believe that the State would approve said grant application after deeming it unsalvageable. 

Edited by MsKreed
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10 hours ago, MsKreed said:

The state may be accepting applications for grants (between $50,000 and $10 million )  to restore some pools (specifically those that are salvageable)......that's not the same as your statement that they're "offering" a $10 million grant for Brand Park pool.

In fact, when New York State required an engineering study for that particular pool, it explicitly determined that it could not be salvaged.  There is no reason for any sane person to believe that the State would approve said grant application after deeming it unsalvageable. 

That's pretty important to distinguish and know. Especially that last part. New York has already deemed it too far gone, why would they throw money at it now?

 

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5 hours ago, Chris said:

why would they throw money at it now?

its worked well for revitalization so far, just look at all the hustle and bustle.....oh wait its just the Hustle

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Wrong,  Chris, they required the study because I had applied to have it placed on the National Historic Register. No one has convincingly determined that it is not salvageable, and the City has been completely disingenuous about it. It is evident the mayor and city manager don't understand or value historic preservation. They also don't believe in maintaining the city's properties, including its parks (City Hall, the Maxwell Place Fire Station, the rollerblading arena at Eldridge Park, the splash pad/playground equipment at Brand Park...). Their arguments are without foundation or credibility. I'm tired of listening to statements that are not based on reason, sound judgment, and knowledge.

As for why they would throw money at it now, Adam, read my article here or in the Star-Gazette, and don't scoff at the pool by making such biased statements. Study the issues. Cities that are flourishing today preserve their history. If you don't believe me, check out Main Street America (under the National Trust for Historic Preservation), or the Strong Towns website.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Jim said:

No one has convincingly determined that it is not salvageable

Convincingly to who? To you?

7 hours ago, Jim said:

Their arguments are without foundation or credibility. I'm tired of listening to statements that are not based on reason, sound judgment, and knowledge.

In other words, that disagree with you.

Simple fact is Jim, if the people of the city wanted the pool it wouldn’t have gotten to the condition it’s in now in the first place. Even when it was open, 20 years ago,  use was already dwindling.

Im all for preservation of history. Your idea for the old fire station on Maxwell I’ve always thought was a good one. That’s a preservation project that I think could be a benefit to the city. But that’s also something that would have a year round benefit as opposed to a pool. At some point one has to be realistic. 

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11 hours ago, Jim said:

Cities that are flourishing today preserve their history. If you don't believe me, check out Main Street America (under the National Trust for Historic Preservation), or the Strong Towns website.

Once upon a time when Elmira was flourishing, it was at the pinnacle of Maslov’s Pyramid and had the means to indulge in esoteric or whimsical “needs” toward the top (like historic preservation as opposed to basic needs like shelter and safety).

The City’s status in the hierarchy has since regressed to needs that are closer to the Pyramid’s base.

image.png.5851190eafa9e3a5de5565c0b65b7dcc.png

Edited by MsKreed
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The point of restoring the pool is to jump start the City to revitalize the downtown, stabilize the City, reach the needs of the underserved, and begin to redevelop from the ground up. It is fundamental to that effort. Otherwise, we continue to destroy the City and mall/maul the downtown.

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It's not the same, today, Chris. Address the arguments I advance in my articles. With a little imagination, we can revive the pool and its usage and make money at it. Compare the benefits of the golf course. Do we even make money on it? I haven't been able to find out, and it's not because I haven't tried.

The problem is a lack of vision in our government and a lack of what is needed to revive our city. Every year they allow more and more demolition in our downtown. It is destroying our city. It's time to start taking care of Elmira's properties, including its parks, instead of letting them rot and stopping the scorching. It's time to stop these failed policies and recognize what planning organizations and cities that are on the move are telling us.

By the way, the mayor has stated that they have no intention of trying to repossess the Maxwell Place Fire Station. But I have actually spoken with the administration of Kennedy Valve, and they said I would be interested in the idea I mentioned.

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The issues with drugs and homelessness etc. are real. Restoration is another matter all together. But restoring the pool will have a huge impact on the stabilization of the Maple St. neighborhood, investment in the area, and revival of downtown. It will, in that way, impact positively on the issues you mention. The current government's policies of refusing to maintain the city's buildings and parks certainly does nothing for either cause. It leads to want and waste of money that could be put to truly good use.

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9 minutes ago, Jim said:

The problem is a lack of vision in our government and a lack of what is needed to revive our city. Every year they allow more and more demolition in our downtown. It is destroying our city. It's time to start taking care of Elmira's properties, including its parks, instead of letting them rot and stopping the scorching. It's time to stop these failed policies and recognize what planning organizations and cities that are on the move are telling us.

You blame the city, and it's government, but seem to overlook the fact that the citizens of the city, your neighbors, continue to vote them into office. So apparently the majority of the city's residents don't disagree, at least not to the extent that you do anyway, with what they're doing. Again, if the pool was that important to the people of Elmira, it wouldn't have been allowed to reach this stat eof disrepair. One of the two or three individuals or groups, who all have told us the same things you've been saying, would have been able to stop the deterioration and restore it. 

13 minutes ago, Jim said:

By the way, the mayor has stated that they have no intention of trying to repossess the Maxwell Place Fire Station. But I have actually spoken with the administration of Kennedy Valve, and they said I would be interested in the idea I mentioned.

Then Kennedy Valve should perhaps buy the building and work with you or anyone else who wants to accomplish your idea. And act fast, because otherwise in ten years ( if that ) we'll be having this same conversation, only about the firehouse.

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1 hour ago, Jim said:

The point of restoring the pool is to jump start the City to revitalize the downtown, stabilize the City, reach the needs of the underserved, and begin to redevelop from the ground up. It is fundamental to that effort. Otherwise, we continue to destroy the City and mall/maul the downtown.

All due respect Sir , how is the restoration of the Pool supposed to “ jumpstart “ revitalization of Elmira ?! It was/  would be used only seasonally and even then only by a very small percentage of the City’s population. And really how is a swimming pool to “ reach the needs of the underserved “ ? Now , there is a word … underserved , this term I believe ( except for a certain category of services) , is overused as a descriptor for , again , a certain percentage of the City’s population. Again , no disrespect intended but we All have our own opinions as to the advantages and disadvantages of repairing/ rebuilding the Pool .

Edited by Hal

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TTL

I have already argued the importance of restoration of the pool for the improvement of the city. Please read those arguments, and answer what your issues have to do with the pool restoration. And look at the vast improvements made by small towns that follow the Main Street America program. The NYSWIMS grant makes the cost of restoration virtually free for the city. It would certainly be less than the $1 million the City has allocated to tear it down and put up the splash pad/playground equipment. And the grant also includes splash pads/equipment. And how do you defend the $2 million replacement of the sprinkler system at the city's golf course? the maintenance costs? the underserved wealthy users? And since we're questioning "underserved," why don't you read the requirements of the grant?

What is TTL, by the way?

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7 minutes ago, Jim said:

TTL

What is TTL, by the way?

Huh?  Not sure where that came from or the context.

"Talk to ya later?" or "Twin Tiers Living?"

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